LGBT- Obama-AFA-media [Archive]

Brian K Beckett

July 6th, 2008, 04:08 AM

If people want to boycott something because they do not like what they represent or support then thats ok. Now allow me to creat a real contraversoy.

What business is it of anyone, who someone else is involved with? Why does it matter to someone else if two people of the same plumbing want to get together and try a lifelong struggle to get the plumbing parts to connect? I know, I know, the Bible says its wrong. And myself like most of you I dont personally want to see certain plumbing parts connected together. But lets look at reality for a minuite. Does it really directy affect you? Does it really directly keep you from going about your daily life? Is it really directly a threat to society?
Now if you dont like it the it is your right to boycott their music, clubs, restaurants, etc.
Lok at the history of marriage. I am referring to the beginning of when marriages first started long long ago. The first marriages were a union of families to basically possess more land, livestock, or what ever. It was only allowed by the wealthy. Peasents and slaves (yes even white slaves) were not allowed to marry. Think about it for a moment the very large majority of us on the BBS are really considered modern day peasents and slaves. ( at least we are considered the modern day equivillent). Yes I know we all have jobs and make an income but the majority of us are really only making the "WEALTH" for someone else and our "INCOME" is basically the same as earning you food, shelter.
If you think about it we would not have been allowed to marry back in the "OLDEN" days because of what someone elses opinion of us. So is it really right for us to not allow someone else the opertunity to live in the constant misery we call marriage, just because of our opinions?
I guess you could allways boycott them from marrying then in your church...

I say we trade them the rainbow for civil unions. I want the rainbow back for us straight people to enjoy. LOL

How was that for a thought Landlord? I bet you didnt think you would get a responce like that?

landlord

July 6th, 2008, 04:52 AM

LMBO
Brian
I am totally shocked and thoroughly delighted to see such an enlightened attitude, in this area to say the least. You are on my list now! The list of truly enlightened and rational thinkers on this site.
I bow to your wisdom. :adore:

3rdfloorstudio

July 6th, 2008, 03:59 PM

The last i looked, being judgemental about someone was on the list of no-no's as far as being a good person goes... So the whole idea that you should tell a person who they can and cannot date to me is a crock. And yes, I know my church doesn't feel that way so I'm probably on a list somewhere. (just kidding)

Being in the arts/design field, I have many friends who fit into the LGBT community and have hated to see them treated so horribly. I think it's ironic that everyone says 'it's in the Bible that you can't be gay' but it's in the Bible too that you should lie, cheat, commit adultery (and so on) but darned if a lot of straight people aren't doing those things. lol

My dad used to say 'You may think I'm going to h***, but I'll hold the door for you when you get there'. ;)

As far as Obama is concerned, I'm worried that he is posturing his stances to fit any given situation. In the past, that was called 'flip-flopping'. I wish I knew where he really stood on an issue. I have respect for someone who takes a stand, even if it differs from mine.

and Please - who's going to boycott MickeyD's? You gonna tell a screaming 3 yr old he can't have his Happy Meal?

SilverFox

July 6th, 2008, 04:14 PM

landlord

July 6th, 2008, 04:34 PM

I believe we are supposed to hate the sin and love the sinner. It does say in the Bible that homosexuality is an abomination. No gray zone. We are living in a world where homosexuality is forced upon our children when, in fact, it is a very dangerous lifestyle. We should be warning our children about this lifestyle instead of supporting it. AIDS kills millions each year and the vast majority are homosexuals. Instead of attacking the people who speak out against a danger to our children, we should support them.

Well now, if you want to get biblical, you should know your facts and the history. The Bible state homosexual acts to be abominations but do you know the context? They were referring to homosexual acts being performed by heterosexual people or by eunochs of the church being forced to perform certain rituals. Again this is OLD TESTAMENT!
If you know your Bible and are going to quote it, you should know that Jesus did not condemn homosexuality, in fact he healed the Centurions servant(and the actual text translates male partner). Jesus promoted love and that is what we should all do.

kcredden

July 6th, 2008, 05:12 PM

I know I may get flack for it, but to be honest I'm 100% in agreement with Brian on this. What right is it ours to dictate who cannot and can be friend/lovers/etc with? That smacks a lot of naztism, and I for one willl never support such an organization.

Besides too: How does gay marriage affect the economy? Gas prices? Our boys and girls dying over in iraq? This seems to be what the media, and others with big mouths bring up to take our minds away from the truely important things like what I mentioned above. Sure two men or women married may be disgusting to some. In the end however, would it help you or stop you from buying a loaf of bread if you was hungry? It wouldn't affect me.

Besides, after the Ky primary I may never vote again in primaries. Why? Cause Ky voted primarly Hillary but a few well connected and rich indivduals gave it to Obama. It wouldn't be so bad if Ky voted primarly Obama becuase that is what the people wanted but anymore it seems only what the rich, and well connected want.

So put Obama in power, personally I doubt either gentleman will be able to help the country out unless they bring the jobs back. How many think that'll happen?

- Kc

maysvillebulldog

July 6th, 2008, 09:15 PM

Well now, if you want to get biblical, you should know your facts and the history. The Bible state homosexual acts to be abominations but do you know the context? They were referring to homosexual acts being performed by heterosexual people or by eunochs of the church being forced to perform certain rituals. Again this is OLD TESTAMENT!
If you know your Bible and are going to quote it, you should know that Jesus did not condemn homosexuality, in fact he healed the Centurions servant(and the actual text translates male partner). Jesus promoted love and that is what we should all do.

[B] I am quite certain that 1 Coronithians, 1 Timothy and Romans are still apart of the NEW TESTAMENT! Maybe you owe SilverFox an apology.

Please read the following excerpt from Bob Davies, a reformed homosexual who is now married.

For any to use the Bible to condone rather than condemn homosexual activity in the theological arena just proves such a one has absolutely no idea what the Bible actually teaches. For anyone to suggest the Bible says homosexual activity is acceptable to God, is nothing short of willful blindness. So to set the record straight once and for all, here is what the Bible teaches on the subject.

Anyone who has heard of the cities of "Sodom and Gommorah" knows that they were notorious hotbeds of homosexuality. Gen 19:5-8 "and they called to Lot and said to him, 'Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may have relations with them.' But Lot went out to them at the doorway, and shut the door behind him, and said, 'Please, my brothers, do not act wickedly.'" The Greek word in the New Testament for homosexuality is literally "a sodomite". Jock is trying to redefine what the term "sodomite" means. (A term that has unchanged in 5000 years, even today- "sodomy") Apart from the fact the city was clearly destroyed by God because of homosexuality in the narrative of Gen 19, even the New Testament clearly states exactly the same thing in Jude 7 "Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire." Any sinner should always remember that the God who commands us to love our neighbour is the same God who will cast any and all unrepentant sinners into the "eternal fire". Here are more Bible quotes, Lev 18:22-23 "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination." Lev 20:13 "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death." 1 Cor 6:9 "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals" 1 Tim 1:9-10 "realizing the fact that (civil) law is not made for a righteous man, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers" Rom 1:26-27 "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error."

If the homosexual community chooses to practice homosexuality in privacy, that is there free choice. But let such persons know for certain that the Christian Bible condemns all such practices and God will judge them unfit for the kingdom of heaven if the continue to practice and openly promote homosexual sex.

landlord

July 6th, 2008, 10:07 PM

Thanks for the introduction to one of the most widely misinterpreted areas of scripture. I read your reply, I hope you will take the time to read the response.
"The word ‘homosexuality’ is a modern term and did not exist during biblical times. Biblical writers had no concept of sexual orientation or sexual development as we understand those today."
~Rev. Dr. Mona West, The Bible and Homosexuality
Sexuality in the Mediterranean World
Biblical scholars have employed the social sciences to study the relational and gender patterns of the ancient Mediterranean world—the world that produced the Bible. Professor Mary Tolbert summarizes that research with the following words:
The single most important concept that defines sexuality in the ancient Mediterranean world, whether we are talking about the kingdoms of Egyptor of Assyriaor whether we are talking about the later kingdoms of Greeceand Rome, is that approved sexual acts never occurred between social equals. Sexuality, by definition, in ancient Mediterranean societies required the combination of dominance and submission. This crucial social and political root metaphor of dominance and submission as the definition of sexuality rested upon a physical basis that assumed every sex act required a penetrator and someone who was penetrated. Needless to say, this definition of sexuality was entirely male—not surprising in the heavily patriarchal societies of the Mediterranean.
In these societies sexual acts between men did happen, but they happened in order to show dominance of one group of men or a man over another, especially during times of war. It was not uncommon for men who had conquered a foreign army to rape them in order to show they were dominant and of a higher status.
The Story of Sodomin Genesis 19
This understanding is helpful when we read the story of the city of Sodom, Lot, and the visitors (or angels). The men of Sodomwant to ‘know’ (yadah - a Hebrew word that can mean sexual intercourse) the foreigners who have come to Lot’s house. In essence they want to rape them in order to show their social and cultural dominance over them.
This story is not a condemnation of homosexuality, but is a story about rape and inhospitality. In other biblical texts (Ezekiel 16:49, Luke 17:28-29) Sodom’s ‘sin’ is not identified as homosexuality, rather, their sins were pride, failure to help the poor, and lack of hospitality to foreigners.
Leviticus
“You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.” (18:22)
“If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death; their blood is upon them.” (20:13)
These verses are part of the Holiness Code in the Old Testament book of Leviticus (chapters 17-26) that attempted to spell out ways the people of Israelwould act differently than their Mediterranean neighbors. In light of the previously mentioned sexual practices of Israel’s neighbors, it becomes clear that this prohibition in Leviticus was an attempt to preserve the internal harmony of Jewish male society by not allowing them to participate in anal intercourse as a form of expressing or gaining social and political dominance. These verses in no way prohibit, nor do they even speak, to loving, caring sexual relationships between people of the same gender.

landlord

July 6th, 2008, 10:08 PM

The Writings of the Apostle Paul
“So do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdomof God? Do not be deceived! Fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, sodomites, thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, robbers—none of these will inherit the kingdomof God” (1 Corinthians 6:9-10).
“The law is laid down not for the innocent but for the lawless and disobedient, for the godless and sinful, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their father or mother, for murderers, fornicators, sodomites, slave traders, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to the sound teaching that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God” (1 Timothy 1:9-11).
There are two major issues to consider when one approaches these passages: translation and sexual practices of Greek culture. A comparison of these verses in several translations of the Bible indicates that there is some confusion about how to translate two Greek words in these lists of vices Paul has enumerated. The two words are arsenokoitai which is rendered in various translations as “homosexuals,” “sodomites,” “child molesters,” or “perverts” and malakoi which is rendered in various translations as “catamites,” “the effeminate,” or “boy prostitutes.”
These Greek words are difficult to translate in the context of these passages. Malakoi is a common term and means “soft.” It can refer to clothing (Matthew 11:8) or moral matters, meaning “undisciplined.” Arsenokoitai is a rare word and is made up of arseno meaning “man,” and koitai meaning “bed, lying, or having sex with.” When put together the word may mean “male prostitutes.”
When these words are placed in the context of Greek culture in which Paul was writing, the passages have very specific meanings. As we have seen earlier, the Mediterranean world had a definition of sexuality that was based on dominance/submission and unequal status. Greek culture fine tuned that definition with regard to status. Proper sexual relations occurred between people whose status was unequal. In addition there was a practice in ancient Greek culture known as pederasty in which younger men were socialized and educated through a close relationship with an older man. These older men were the boys’ (age 12 or 13) patrons and, often, their lovers. These relationships were seen as the key to raising up the next generation of city leaders and there were strict rules about how long the relationship should last and the roles of families within these relationships. Evidently there was some abuse happening in these relationships and young boys were being exploited and kept by the patron well after the boy had grown into adulthood (which would have made him an equal, hence violating the code of sex only among unequals).
These abusive relationships are what the apostle Paul is referencing, not mutually loving and caring relationships between people of the same sex.
Romans 1:26-27
“For this reason God gave them up to degrading passions. Their women exchanged natural intercourse for unnatural, and in the same way also the men, giving up natural intercourse with women, were consumed with passion for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and received in their own persons the due penalty for their error.”
By now it should be clear that these verses must be read in the cultural context of the Mediterranean world that understood socially acceptable sexual behavior to happen only one way: among unequals with the dominant partner always an adult male.
It is also important to read these verses in Romans within their larger context. At the beginning of his letter to the church in Rome (where he had not yet visited) Paul was attempting to lay out for the Roman church his theology of grace (all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God; but are justified by the gift of grace in Christ Jesus, 3:23). He is writing to a Jewish and Gentile audience. In chapter one he tries to demonstrate the Gentiles’ need for God by pointing out behaviors that keep them alienated from God. In chapter two he does the same thing for his Jewish audience.
Paul’s reference to natural and unnatural sexual acts must be taken in light of Mediterranean sexuality. He is not attempting to give an ethical teaching concerning homosexuality. He is trying to meet his Gentile audience on their own terms; using the example of some people who are not upholding the dominant/submissive model as an opportunity to talk about all persons’ need for the saving grace of Jesus Christ.

landlord

July 6th, 2008, 10:09 PM

Issues of Biblical Authority
When dealing with matters of biblical interpretation one always needs to keep in mind the role of the authority of the Bible in matters of faith and practice. While the Bible is an important witness to the relationship between God and humanity, it is not the ultimate revelation of God—Jesus Christ, the Word made flesh, is. We must guard against what some scholars have called bibliolatry—making an idol out of scripture.
One way to guard against bibliolatry is to realize that while the Bible may be at the center of matters of faith, it must also be in ‘conversation’ with tradition, experience and reason. These four sources of faith have become known as the Wesleyan quadrilateral, so named after their originator John Wesley, founder of the Methodist heritage.
We must read and interpret scripture with the aid of the history and tradition of the Christian church. We must also bring reason—philosophical and rational thought--to bear on applications of scripture to real life situations. And last and most importantly, scripture must be weighed alongside human experience—especially the experience of God’s grace.
It is time we stopped making an idol out of the Bible. It is time we bring philosophical and rational thought—especially what the sciences have told us about sexual orientation and identity development—into conversation with the Bible. It is time we listen to the experiences of God’s gay and lesbian children who know with all their hearts that God has created them just as they are.

mark

July 7th, 2008, 12:27 AM

glenda

July 7th, 2008, 12:33 AM

who are we to judge ?

maysvillebulldog

July 7th, 2008, 01:24 AM

If you know your Bible and are going to quote it, you should know that Jesus did not condemn homosexuality, in fact he healed the Centurions servant(and the actual text translates male partner). Jesus promoted love and that is what we should all do.[/QUOTE]

The servant of which you speak is described as "pais" in the book of Matthew. While this term is unusual and more often would be replaced with "doulos," it in no way implies a homosexual relationship. Most often the term "pais" is used to describe a servant younger than an adult. Most Biblical commentators translate this to mean that the Centurion's young servant was loved but not in a sexual way, more like that of an adopted son. However, in our "modern" age, many see fit to redefine terms to fit their personal needs or preferences. I choose to take the Bible literally. As to "glenda," I don't believe anyone is judging. You can certainly hate the sin and love the sinner.
"Landlord," I feel quite certain that you certainly don't consider me an "enlightened thinker!" That's ok, I can love you anyway.

landlord

July 7th, 2008, 01:46 AM

That maybe her belief, but, how does one interpret Leviticus 18:22:

Leviticus 18:22 (New International Version)

22 " 'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.

and Leviticus 20:13 is even harsher:

Leviticus 20:13 (New International Version)
13 " 'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

One can say it anyway you want. Give it any spin you wish.
IMO.....that's pretty much "to the point" when I read it........see ya mark

Exactly my point, it is an interpretation of a written word from thousands of years ago, in a different language and of a different culture. If you speak another language you know that many words are not directly interpretable and left for the interpretor to add his own spin on it.
If you want to take it verbatim then you will have to stone all the adulterers, fornicators, drunkards, cut off the hands of all the thiefs, if you had land you would have slaves, if you didn't you would BE a slave, women would be at home baking and taking care of the house with their hair long and covered and never heard from in a public forum(boy times have changed). ;)
 ****** Double Post *********
If you know your Bible and are going to quote it, you should know that Jesus did not condemn homosexuality, in fact he healed the Centurions servant(and the actual text translates male partner). Jesus promoted love and that is what we should all do.

The servant of which you speak is described as "pais" in the book of Matthew. While this term is unusual and more often would be replaced with "doulos," it in no way implies a homosexual relationship. Most often the term "pais" is used to describe a servant younger than an adult. Most Biblical commentators translate this to mean that the Centurion's young servant was loved but not in a sexual way, more like that of an adopted son. However, in our "modern" age, many see fit to redefine terms to fit their personal needs or preferences. I choose to take the Bible literally. As to "glenda," I don't believe anyone is judging. You can certainly hate the sin and love the sinner.
"Landlord," I feel quite certain that you certainly don't consider me an "enlightened thinker!" That's ok, I can love you anyway.[/QUOTE]

And yet another interpretation or translation from another person putting their own spin on something written centuries ago. I guess if you want to still believe the world is flat you can go back to another era and pull writings from there and make them to fit your hypothesis.
The point is only GOD knows what his original thought or intention was. We as humans place such limits on our spirituality, our evolution and our possibilities, so much that we become afraid and try to hold it back and not let it happen.

 ****** Double Post *********

"Landlord," I feel quite certain that you certainly don't consider me an "enlightened thinker!" That's ok, I can love you anyway.[/QUOTE]

You may be enlightened in your own way, that's not for me to judge. I find it refreshing to hear all view points and respect those who can discuss openly and are non judgemental.
I find that those who have travelled abroad and are truly interested in spiritual growth have an added blessing. They can witness the beauty of the world and experience the cultures of multiple other societies. It then humbles you to know that you are blessed to live in such a country as we do, where the differences and variations of all can come to together.
The simple scientific fact is that we are all 99.99% identical. The .01% in our dna strand gives us our distinct personality, physical traits and talents. It is AMAZING how WE focus on that .01% difference instead of the 99.99% of things we have in common. If that .01% is such a threat to your world and way of living, within that person is fear and a very low self esteem.

SilverFox

July 7th, 2008, 12:48 PM

kdown

July 7th, 2008, 01:00 PM

The simple scientific fact is that we are all 99.99% identical.
That's pretty scary.

Bengals_Mama

July 7th, 2008, 01:40 PM

I figured I would add to this since most of you know that I am a Christian with pretty strong beliefs. Also, since the church I attend is referred to by many as a "Holiness" church. I don't want to be classified into the "religious" group that hates gays, and wants them wiped off the face of the earth. I have a couple of cousins who are gay/lesbian, and I support them as much as I can. Do I believe in gay marriage? No, I don't. That is supposed to be between a man & woman. BUT, I do support civil unions... it would be no different than a straight couple living together without being married. They need the benefits to be able to take care of their partner, and their children. Our preacher preached on this subject just a few weeks ago, and it was a very good lesson. We are to hate SIN, not the SINNER. Jesus hated SIN, not the SINNER. God loves each and every one of us equally, and will continue to do so until we reach judgement day & he says "DEPART FROM ME!" Each & every one of us is a SINNER. We sin every single day. Homosexuality is no more of a sin than cussing, so let's take a real long look at ourselves. We will be judged the same way as gays, so you need to just accept that. We need to treat each other with respect & love and know that God will make the ultimate decision in the end on whether or not we are fit to enter the kingdom of Heaven.

Jayne

July 7th, 2008, 04:00 PM

I count myself among those who think that people have the right to love whomever they want to; no mater what gender they choose to bestow that love upon. We should be happy that people find someone to love in life and not harbor any ill feelings towards them. I also consider those who think this is still an issue to be close minded and full of hate for a huge percentage of mankind. The real issues at this time should be our poor economy and the state of unemployment in our great country. If all of these people turned thier energy toward helping to solve the problems of hunger and poverty in the USA then our country might once again be the world power it once was. A positive use of political power would have to be a better choice than wasting it on trying to control people and fix them of a condition that exists as a problem only in their own minds. The gay population is happy with thier choice, let them know that we are happy for them. I know I am happuy for all of my gay friends and if there is ever a wedding to attend joining them for life I'll be sitting in the front row.

kdown

July 7th, 2008, 04:09 PM

All post are the intelligent property and responsibility of the respective poster.

landlord

July 7th, 2008, 05:49 PM

While we don't have the right to judge people, we certainly have the right to make judgements concerning behavior and to warn our children about dangerous lifestyles. We should love the sinner and hate the sin. I have found that many who promote the homosexual lifestyle will vicously attack anyone who speaks of the Bible and the dangers of this lifestyle. Many who will defend sodomy will run for cover when anyone actually speaks clearly of what is involved. I had a hairdresser several years ago who died at age 45 from what I think was AIDS. All was very hush-hush about his illness and death. He was a kind and warm person who treated everyone well. His senseless death still bothers me very much. So, don't think for one minute I hate homosexuals.

So you are telling me Silverfox, you warn your children about what YOU think is immoral or not right. That I agree with, we all have the right to raise our children and voice our opinions. That is why we all live here in the United
States of America or at least why our ancestors came here.
I however feel it dangerous for our children to live in homes where the couples fight, cuss, smoke, use drugs, use alcohol, watch pg13 or R rated movies and have to suffer through divorces and relationship after relationship that their parents parade through the home.
I would much rather expose my children to a home full of love and mutual respect and support, no matter what the sex of the couple is. It has been documented over and over that the statement that gay couples were bad parents or shouldn't adopt is a total fabrication. Reports show that 97 % of abuse, neglect or other incidents come from typical heterosexual relationships.
I am not saying that the LGBT society is perfect, there are those like in the straight world where partying, drinking, drugs or extra marital affairs are a way of life. We cannot dictate morals, God knows, but if you show mutual respect and compassion to ALL people, you will definetly be one up on the game.
I agree with Bengalsmama, we should be happy that 2 people can find love first of all and if they can make it work and survive given all the adversity they have to endure, I say BRAVO.
 ****** Double Post *********
That's pretty scary.

The truth usually is!
 ****** Double Post *********
While we don't have the right to judge people, we certainly have the right to make judgements concerning behavior and to warn our children about dangerous lifestyles. We should love the sinner and hate the sin. I have found that many who promote the homosexual lifestyle will vicously attack anyone who speaks of the Bible and the dangers of this lifestyle. Many who will defend sodomy will run for cover when anyone actually speaks clearly of what is involved. I had a hairdresser several years ago who died at age 45 from what I think was AIDS. All was very hush-hush about his illness and death. He was a kind and warm person who treated everyone well. His senseless death still bothers me very much. So, don't think for one minute I hate homosexuals.

Funny how HIV AIDS came to be known as the Gay disease. Tell all the heterosexual people here and in Africa where this began, that they got this because they are gay. Fact is the disease is spread because of ignorance of safe sex, because we know abstinence is wishful thinking. It is true the HIV virus spread predominantly in the gay society due to promiscuity, but it was also in the straight world, but kept quiet because no one wanted to admit to having the "gay virus". This is how diseases, lies and other problems grow, avoid the truth, disguise the truth, deny the truth.
Society brings about the worst possible outcome only because they use plausable deniability; "it can't happen to me", "I don't recall that ever happening", "that person, group is responsible, not ME!"

3rdfloorstudio

July 7th, 2008, 06:38 PM

I however feel it dangerous for our children to live in homes where the couples fight, cuss, smoke, use drugs, use alcohol, watch pg13 or R rated movies and have to suffer through divorces and relationship after relationship that their parents parade through the home.

THAT'S what I was trying to say. People shouldn't say 'those people' are sinners - we're ALL sinners. and no one sin is greater than another. It says "break one - break them all".

I can't quote scripture and verse but I believe God is one of love and Jesus talked about atoning for one's sins. You go out everyday and be kind and do the best you can. You help people. You support people who are trying to do good. The Ten Commandments (which have their form in every organized religion) and The Golden Rule - it's not difficult. Everybody tries to make it so complicated.

Honestly, none of us has the answer and a lot of us (including probably me) are gonna be REAL surprised when we meet our maker for what we have to ask forgiveness.

Should we support gay unions? I think so, bc if you live together you should be able to protect each other legally. Gay marriage sanctioned by religion - that's for individual churches to decide.

We have such bigger problems in this world to worry about that affect us all - gay and straight - to waste time pointing fingers.

landlord

July 7th, 2008, 09:00 PM

3rdfloorstudio, I think you have it summed up pretty well.
I think those who argue and protest the loudest have issues far beyond the topic. I enjoy the fact that we can come together in this forum and others to discuss this topic and others, even if we don't agree or have the same convictions.
Looking down on us from the 3rd floor I am sure you have a birds eye view of many things that goes on. :)

Jeremy

July 7th, 2008, 11:40 PM

landlord

July 8th, 2008, 12:00 AM

For you guys quoting the Bible, don't forget women who wear pants are an abomination too:

Deuteronomy 22:5 The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God.

POINT WELL SPOKEN JEREMY
That is another thing that is frustrating, people want to quote the Bible but only pull out what they find suits their motivation or desired outcome. If you want to enforce one obscure verse, you should be willing to accept all the others as well.
As said before, the Bible is a guide, Gods spoken word interpreted by man, but Christ is the ultimate authority and his example speaks for itself and should speak to all of us.

3rdfloorstudio

July 8th, 2008, 12:22 AM

Looking down on us from the 3rd floor I am sure you have a birds eye view of many things that goes on. :)

trust me, i have no right to look down on anyone (despite my 'lofty' moniker). I'm just up here sewing and making art and minding my own 'beeesnisss'. My one goal these days is to leave things better on this planet than when I got here. I have a lot of work to do. I need to borrow your avatar. haha
and then i find that bc i no longer even own a skirt or dress, i'm an abomination. thank you Jeremy. (jk, jk) well i've been called worse. lol

landlord

July 8th, 2008, 12:41 AM

trust me, i have no right to look down on anyone (despite my 'lofty' moniker). I'm just up here sewing and making art and minding my own 'beeesnisss'. My one goal these days is to leave things better on this planet than when I got here. I have a lot of work to do. I need to borrow your avatar. haha
and then i find that bc i no longer even own a skirt or dress, i'm an abomination. thank you Jeremy. (jk, jk) well i've been called worse. lol

I didn't mean to imply you were looking down on anyone(I just like your 3rd floor point of view), in fact I find your comments very respectful, thoughtful and Christian like.

Jeremy

July 8th, 2008, 06:21 AM

and then i find that bc i no longer even own a skirt or dress, i'm an abomination. thank you Jeremy. (jk, jk) well i've been called worse. lol

There might be a loophole if they're women's pants :) If it's any consolation, I'm an abomination too.

Deuteronomy 7:26 Neither shalt thou bring an abomination into thine house, lest thou be a cursed thing like it: but thou shalt utterly detest it, and thou shalt utterly abhor it; for it is a cursed thing.

My wife wears pants. *sigh*

SilverFox

July 8th, 2008, 09:45 AM

littlelee

July 8th, 2008, 11:00 AM

landlord

July 8th, 2008, 11:42 AM

For any of you who want your children exposed to the "gay"lifestyle and want to encourage their participation in that life, more power to you. Just don't attempt to corrupt other people's children with this nonsense and don't think for one minute, any clear thinking person buys into the propaganda. Homosexuality is a very dangerous lifestyle and certainly not as portrayed in movies and tv shows.

How ridiculous! Just as you cannot shield your children from violence or language on tv or in the street, marital strife, the hispanic or black culture your children will be exposed to many things in their life time. If you feel a child can be "converted" just by being exposed to something different, whether it be a culture, an ethnicity or a religion, then you have little faith in the childs belief system and sense of self, or perhaps your fears are what you're are exposing your child to. And thus the cylcle of bigotry, fear and oppression continues.

People think the gay lifestyle is something that can be taught or caught like a disease, but that is far from the truth. Could you have been swayed as a child? I doubt it! We were not indoctrinated into being straight or gay as a child. In fact, statistics show 90% and up of all children have curiousity about sexuality and experiment. Any "clear thinking" person knows sexuality is instilled in us by God, no matter what orientation you are geared towards. All any parent wants is for their child to be happy. NO person would choose to live a life, any life, that they know is going to be filled with oppression, hatred towards them, discrimination, and where children are taught to fear them. I know I wouldn't!

So what I am hearing is that we should tell our children, "gay people are dangerous and can turn them gay?" And by dangerous lifestyle you mean one that YOU don't understand, YOU can't relate to or one that YOU are afraid of?
I am curious what your experience of the "gay lifestyle" has been and why you feel it such a danger to you personally? You say it is "certaintly NOT as portrayed in movies or tv shows," I am curious how you know this. My experience with that community,(doctors, attorneys, construction workers, pastors, neighbors and yes even the hairdresser) has taught me that all the fear I was brought up with, the taboo that was never spoken of in public is all bunk. People are people, they work, they pay taxes, they have families, they go to church and they love.

This is what frightens me, this type of thinking is what the extremist, taliban and other terrorist use to justify wars and kill peole at their discretion. The propaganda being preached is that people different than me, different than the way I feel, believing different than me, loving different than me or not accepting aniquated, centuries old social laws which Christ himself came to abolish, they should be FEARED or worse!

Anyone has the right to teach their children as they believe and I pray that the foundation of any teaching is love, compassion and acceptance. If not, our world will continue on as it has for centuries, with violence, wars, disharmony and FEAR. If that is what you want your legacy to be, that is YOUR choice.

kdown

July 8th, 2008, 12:00 PM

Amen !!!!!!!!

JRbickley

July 8th, 2008, 01:18 PM

( Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. ) Pick at every word and I say we are all in trouble. I'am not a fan either but its not my business.

landlord

July 8th, 2008, 01:28 PM

I'm just sick and tired of having it shoved down my throat. If that's the way they want to live their life, fine. I don't approve of it, but I'm not going to condemn anyone. What I do or don't do is between me and God and the same goes for everyone else. It's none of my business what others do. I'm just supposed to love them and pray for them. It just frustrates me that it seems to constantly be pushed at us whether we want it or not. If the government wants to give them legal status, fine, but I don't want it shoved down my throat constantly.

I think the same thing was said when Blacks and women were fighting for their equal rights. The right to vote, marry, own land, have a voice, have equal rights under the constitution, those are all things that we take for granted until they are taken from us. So if a group has to keep an issue in the news, whether it be banning certain breeds of dogs, the right to possess firearms or having equal rights, that is their right. Do like I do, if I get tired of hearing about it, I turn off the news or avoid wherever I may encounter the topic. I doubt you have anyone forcing you to read the paper or watch the news or "forcing it down your throat" so to speak.

SilverFox

July 8th, 2008, 01:29 PM

JRbickley

July 8th, 2008, 02:11 PM

If, and it happens a child is born with both sets of plumbing and the parents make a choice to have it corrected and they pick the wrong way. Is that child now ****d? If they wait and let the child chose later is it now different? That would be a hard choice for a parent to try 50/50 or let your child grow up being so different.

Beatles

July 8th, 2008, 02:51 PM

If that is the lifestyle you choose, fine, no problem with that. I only ;have a problem when they start trying to pass laws giving people special rights. One's sexual preference is NOT something that needs to be legislated.

Chuck

July 8th, 2008, 03:15 PM

You can be so heavenly minded that you are no earthly good. Debates like this are started when people feel that their Life, Religion or Rights are more important than another's. It really steals for the whole "Equality" ideology.

We are only 99% alike by biological characteristic and that is really the end of the similarities. In Physically and psychologically we are only 50% alike. It is what makes us individual.

The statement made that humans are 99% alike is an article done a few years back. It was referring to Chimps and Humans being alike. It is a really good theists and is a better read than a mis-quote.

The difference between Judging and Passing judgment is the punishment by the comments you make.

kdown

July 8th, 2008, 03:34 PM

The difference between Judging and Passing judgment is the punishment by the comments you make.

Say what ??

anb_swrk

July 8th, 2008, 06:58 PM

PART ONE:
As I sit here and read this it frightens me to see how close minded our society really is. All this about how dangerous the lifestyle is, how it's an abomination and being shoved down heterosexuals’ throats is sickening. If you really looking into the research it is quiet the opposite. As a part of this so called abomination I have a right to defend myself, my friends, and my loved ones. You say to protect your children and avoid them from being corrupted, let me through some facts out there:
Twelve hundred randomly selected public school middle level teachers in Colorado were surveyed, and responses were received from 369 teachers (31%). The principal findings were: (1) Most teachers expressed moderate to high levels of homophobia and had moderate to high numbers of misconceptions about homosexuality and homosexuals; (2) Most teachers had never had a course nor participated in a professional development activity that included information regarding homosexuality and gay and lesbian issues, and there was clearly a lack of knowledge (awareness) about issues facing gay and lesbian youth; (3) Teachers were slightly willing to positively address issues of homosexuality and gay and lesbian students in the school, especially in the area of student harassment, but there was still much hesitation expressed in the area of proactive teaching roles, particularly in light of perceived lack of administrative support; (4) Teachers who were more homophobic, had more misconceptions about homosexuality, had less knowledge about issues facing gay and lesbian youth, and projected that they might participate in fewer supportive behaviors and professional activities relating to homosexuality and gay and lesbian issues, had one or more of the following traits: were male; had some religious affiliation; were heterosexual; taught in a rural area; had 26 or more years of teaching experience; had less than three kinds of associations with a gay, lesbian, or bisexual person; and/or had zero courses o r professional development activities which included information regarding homosexuality and gay and lesbian issues; and (5) Teachers who were more homophobic were more likely to have a greater number of misconceptions about homosexuality, less likely to be knowledgeable about the issues facing gay and lesbian youth, and less likely to engage in behaviors and professional activities supportive of these issues.
Gay, lesbian, and bisexual youth comprise a population of young people who have been found to be underrepresented in the literature, although their needs are many. Studies show that gay, lesbian, and bisexual youth are at increased risk for low self-esteem, depression, substance abuse, dropping out of school, and suicide. The school is in a unique position to help with these issue, but often support for these youth is not available.
87% of public school systems who have zero tolerance for bullying, do not mention the LGBT student in their mission vision and beliefs statements. In sex education classes, it is not discussed what types of STD can be transmitted by having same sex relation. And to surprise you 16-25% of teens and young adults (ages 14-24) experiment with their sexuality. Where is that protecting the LGBT student and where does any of that say that homosexuality is being shoved or forced upon children?

Video games : Violent video games have been linked to antisocial and aggressive behavior in children and adolescents. What is more scary? A teen playing hours upon hours of violent video games or a LGBT person befriending your child?

anb_swrk

July 8th, 2008, 06:58 PM

PART TWO

When parents have to act as if they are a single parent so that their child(ren) are not discriminated against, and can attend birthday parties, cookouts, and kids can come spend the night at their house . What about having to hide who you are so you don’t lose your job, your family, and friends? Let me throw this out there… what if your wife or husband was in a horrific accident on the way home from work tonight, do you know that you can have a much needed and appropriate say on his/her treatment, get updates as they are available, and even be told they are at the hospital. However, if my partner was in an accident tonight, I wouldn’t even be notified that she was in the hospital, I couldn’t get information about her condition if somehow I found out, and in the event she was getting ready to take her last breaths, I couldn’t even say good-bye.

Yet, our life is not different than yours other than the sex. We come home, do laundry, make dinner, take out the trash, walk the dog, pay the bills, watch CSI, talk about stress at work or good news, go to bed with someone we love, pray and thank God for his blessings, guidance and love this day. WOW, now that I think of it that is dangerous…. all that in only 24 hrs …. LOL! But seriously, what is the difference other than one of us has tits instead of a penis!!!1138 is a very valuable number to me, and all LGBT individuals:1138 – the number of federal rights, protections and benefits guaranteed by marriage in the United States. 1138 – the number of federal rights, protections and benefits denied to millions of loving couple solely due to their sexual orientation
And YET we are the ones forcing homosexuality down your throats.

One last comment: For all of those who are belting Biblical facts, please know this. The Bible was written in the norm of that time frame, like someone mentioned women are not to cut their hair, we are not to touch the skin of pig (sorry football lovers), if you believe homosexuality is a sin, FINE but don’t be confused about one thing I know for sure…. Jesus was crucified on the cross for my sins, your sins and future sins. A sin has no ranking, one is as bad as the other in God’s eyes. I was saved at the age of 11 years old, I go to church every Sunday, I praise my God, the Just God, the Loving God. Remember the 10 commandments and what they say about judging!!! John 3:16 “For God so loved the world he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in Him shall not parish but have everlasting life.” No EXCEPTIONS!

landlord

July 8th, 2008, 07:00 PM

anb_swrk

July 8th, 2008, 07:08 PM

PS - Gays are always flamboyant, lesbians aren’t always Butch … so be careful who you are judging, b/c it could be your neighbor, co – worker, doctor, or a coach and you may never know! Scary to think about huh, you close-minded suckers …. How two faced would you look when you all the sudden changed your view on them if you were to find out they were getting sexually pleased from the same sex!!!

landlord

July 8th, 2008, 07:09 PM

Thanks for your input and comments. They are welcomed just as anyone else.

Bengals_Mama

July 8th, 2008, 07:30 PM

Actually I don't think they had pants back in the Bible days... everyone wore dresses..lol I could be wrong though...

neverinthepaper

July 8th, 2008, 07:59 PM

I think all the biblical references and name calling have gone far away from the political point of the oroginal post. I would like to change the lane of comments with these:1) Marriage is not a religious practice it is a legal contract. If we as a nation truly separate church and state, then the church ceremony is just that- a religious recognition. 2) yes, many teachers are homphobic, and so are their students- however many teachers are eyed with suspicion when they promote "tolerance" of alternative lifestyles even when they don't advocate the specific lifestyle. 3) As a middle school teacher, I can tell you that some of my students, like their parents believe that you can "catch" homosexuality. Many also believe that homosexuals are less like;y to control their sexual urges and will "put the move" on any same sex person in their line of vision. Finally, 4) in the last two state legislative sessions bullying bills have been proposed. One of these proposed laws actually included language that prohibited schools from punishing students whose comments to others were based on their religious beliefs!
I was schocked at such a transparent loophole for students to harass homosexual classmates with impunity. If some of our legislators feel that this type of behavior should be tolerated, is it any wonder that members of this forum feel the same?

anb_swrk

July 8th, 2008, 08:09 PM

Neverinthepaper - thanks I respect your points. I guess my point was too that there is no education to provide understanding and show that these children, individuals really aren't any different as a person. It's scary what behaviors and beliefs are passed down from the top.

landlord

July 8th, 2008, 08:34 PM

I agree with you also "neverinthepaper". Marriage was initially used as a legal contract between two parties. And I believe marriage is a sacred bond between 2 people who love is each other and if held accountable, most married people would be dead. You know "till death us do part"? It seems the heterosexual community is laying claim to something they have totally screwed up. Maybe the fear is that same sex couples could show them up, actually make marriage a lifelong commitment and stick to it?
I know firsthand that in many communities, city councils actually invite and give incentives for the LGBT community to move into areas that need improving. Once there, they put some hard work into their home, improvements that would not be otherwise done and when it is all said and done, that neighborhood is the most expensive area to live and everybody wants in. Then the cycle begins again, they sell out for a good profit and move on while the STR8 people move in and enjoy the benefits.
What a beautiful world it would be if we could actually live side by side, accepting one another and enjoying the differences. I know several neighborhoods around here could use some TLC and a little color.

Brian K Beckett

July 8th, 2008, 08:45 PM

Ok im gonna get off topic for a bit but it is releated to the subject.

Do they allow gay couples to adopt? Do they allow single people to adopt?

Oh yeah and I am a straight guy that loves lesbian rock but I despices gay man techno. I dont know why I had the urge to state that but Melissa Etheridge and Katy Perry Rock

anb_swrk

July 8th, 2008, 08:51 PM

Great topic Landlord! This is very true. The LGBT community is one of the most non-judgemental communities and reminds me of someone I once met. She was overweight and never felt comfortable going to the beach and laying out. She and another workout buddy from Curves decided that they would go on a cruise for a get-away from the husband and children. They chose the Rosie O'Donnel cruise that is a gay cruise. They said they felt so comfortable being themselve, and to this day every year they and their husbands and children take the cruise.

What an amazing lesson for the children as well!
 ****** Double Post *********
Yes, gays can adopt but it is a very strict and limited acceptaning agencies. It's typically out of country adoption which is sad b/c there are so many US children waiting for a loving family!

There have been bans against it in the past and over the last 5 yrs more agencies have begun to accept applications from same-sex homes.

landlord

July 8th, 2008, 10:23 PM

Thanks anb_swrk!

I have checked out the adoption websites and was surprised to see that Kentucky was one of the states that list same sex couples as being able to adopt. I do not know the steps or hoops the couple would have to jump through, but at least it is not banned. In fact that is where I got some of the stats previously in regards to abuse, or I should say the lack of it in same sex couples as compared to heterosexual couples.

Brian K Beckett

July 8th, 2008, 10:30 PM

It would seem to me that a child would be better off in a home with two people to take care of it, listen to its problems, and guide it to making good life decisions. I dont know too many gay people but the 2 or three I know I would trust with my own kid if I had one. I thought I remembered hearing where gay couples were not allowed to adopt and I always thought it was stupid. A kid would have to be better off in a good home instead of in an orphanage or some other type of home where the only personal guidence they recieved was from another person of basically the same age or background.
As for the benifits its a shame about what youl isted in the other thread about not being able to share the same benifits as a married couple.

JRbickley

July 8th, 2008, 10:32 PM

anb_swrk

July 8th, 2008, 10:33 PM

Landlord and Brian. Thanks for the support! you know it's amazing to me that ppl would limit a child who has no one from being adopted by a gay couple strictly b/c of orientation.

I hope this blog is really opening eyes to everyone, beyond the moral/ethical jargin that is always thrown up.

I am in the process of trying to write a journal or even small book on gay relationships and the myth busters and facts.... anyone know an editor? lol
 ****** Double Post *********
dbickley... exactly so why should they tell us we need to be with a man or woman.

Brian K Beckett

July 8th, 2008, 11:01 PM

anb_swrk and landlord. Believe it or not I think most everyone even the "religious people" are basically saying that they dont really condem the gay lifestyle but they dont really want to promote it. If you ask me that is a showing of how much education people have gained about the subject. 10 or 20 heck even 5 to 8 years ago I dont think that most would be as open minded as they are being. And I do somewhat see littlelees point about it being sort of shoved down people throats. It does seem like every station on TV now has 2 to 4 shows per network with flamboyant gay people. I know its sort of a popular thing with TV now but even an open minded person such as myself find it to be annoying every channel you flip to it eith americas next top model (with gas) so you think you can dance (with gays) and many others. Its a shock to the system if you are not allready used to or familiar with that lifestyle. So go a little easy on those people, I know you are frustrated about how people view things but much like people believe that God gave them their orientation God also gave them their brain and made it work like it does. The two side are having a discussion but everyone needs to still look at and think about how the other thinks. I hope i am explaining this right. It takes time to change opinion even when you show someone else facts they still favor their opinion, Its like trying to break a bad habbit it just takes patients and time.

JRbickley

July 8th, 2008, 11:10 PM

landlord

July 8th, 2008, 11:50 PM

Brian, I think you are correct. Most people are more open minded these days and are realizing with education what the true objective is, equal rights not special rights. But there are still those who promote such negativity, fear and malace just by their comments, case in point:

"For any of you who want your children exposed to the "gay"lifestyle and want to encourage their participation in that life, more power to you. Just don't attempt to corrupt other people's children with this nonsense and don't think for one minute, any clear thinking person buys into the propaganda. Homosexuality is a very dangerous lifestyle and certainly not as portrayed in movies and tv shows."

Having a voice is one thing, but one needs to know what that voice can do or cause other people to do. Accountability is something the world has seemed to push to the side these days.
 ****** Double Post *********
I'am not going to go to deep on this but, I believe that that this perference is not imposed you are born with it. You can't make a person straight or other, you may make them live a lie.

And unfortunately that is what happens. People are forced to lie about who they really are which causes them to be unhappy, unhealthy people. Then those unhappy people get married and try to live a lie causing more unhappiness for the spouse and family. Youth that are not given the tools/education as stated earlier by anb_swrk are then forced to go and search for answers, God knows where, or are so fearful of being found out that they suffer depression and worse. We all the know the statistics on teenage suicide and experimentation with drugs/alcohol. When an issue is not dealt with, any issue, it leads to acting out in one form or another, and that is universal, young/old, black/white, str8/gay.

So whether you want to stick your head in the sand and pretend it doesn't exist, are riding the fence and not sure where to weigh in, have you mind made up one way or the other, the basis for this thread was that this issue is going to be in your life no matter what. The political machine is going to use it to suit their needs in the upcoming election so it is not going away. As humans we need focus on the bigger picture which is, am I doing what is best for mankind or as Christians, am I living a life that is pleasing to Christ. Do I promote peace and harmony and love my neighbor, even though he may be of a different race, belief or sexual orientation? I think we all answer yes to that so let our actions and words follow accordingly.

anb_swrk

July 9th, 2008, 09:47 AM

Great post landlord.

It is amazing how mant people actually believe it is a choice. This is what I say to them... why would I choose a life where I am condemed by most of society, don't have the same legal rights, and have to lie about my life in the majority of situations I am put in. Luckily sexual orientation isn't always as obvious as race, I can hide it unlike the color of skin. I have known since around 9 years old that I was attracted to females. Though I tried to please my parents knowing that they would disown me, I even took it as far as getting engaged to a man in college, who became abusive, and finally after living through that ****, i decided the **** of not being an equal was much less painful then having to spend the rest of my life with someone that would never please me in any area of life (physically, emotionally).

So I agree, you can either try to deny that it is out there, or you can meet it face to face. The promotion of equality, peace and harmony has to be forefront, if not we are being hypocritical in all sense of the word.

Jeremy

July 9th, 2008, 11:08 AM

dont know why I had the urge to state that but Melissa Etheridge and Katy Perry Rock

I have no doubt that Melissa Etheridge is an abomination. But if Katy Perry is, that would be really sad.

Chuck

July 9th, 2008, 11:40 AM

Kdown,
What I was try to convey was the difference between Judging and passing judgment. The comments people make determines if a person is making a simple judgment call for personal use or passing judgment to make derogatory comments.

I find it wierd that folks find gays equal to a terrorist yet urban gangs, domestic violance are just simple USA crimes.

Beatle,
The govt. is already legislating same sex marrage by saying that they cannot be married when there was no laws on the books to prevent it originally.

JRbickley

July 9th, 2008, 12:00 PM

In 2004 Kentucky passed an Amedment to the states Constitution to preserve marriage, it passed 3/1. It says marriage can only be between one man and one woman. Majority over minority?

kcredden

July 9th, 2008, 12:51 PM

anb_swrk: Just wanted to say welcome to the board, and having the guts to be in the open. I had wondered for a long time if there was any B/G/L/TG people on the board. I hadn't welcomed you until now, because I was being very careful. It took many re-readings of your posts, including the newest ones to make sure of what I'm doing.

I remember when the Wicca/Pagan community came here, it was obvious right off. But you? Well didn't want to offend :)

But again, welcome.

- Kc

kdown

July 9th, 2008, 12:54 PM

Bengals_Mama

July 9th, 2008, 05:44 PM

JRbickley

July 9th, 2008, 05:57 PM

Brian K Beckett

July 9th, 2008, 07:03 PM

I have no doubt that Melissa Etheridge is an abomination. But if Katy Perry is, that would be really sad.

Melissa Etheridge man what a tallent that cant be deinied because she is a "abomination" And Katy Perry oh man what a wayste if she is Lesbian.

I like the fact of two guys together better then two women together. I know that sounds strange but the way I see it is its less competition!!! LOL!!!

anb_swrk

July 9th, 2008, 11:02 PM

landlord

July 10th, 2008, 11:54 AM

kcredden - thank you for the welcome!

Bengals_Mama: Your post is very true, and that is another reason that the LGBT community is often looked at as not having monogomus relationships, which couldn't be further from the truth.

Perhaps that is the the real threat, the 2 societies are so much alike. That could be considered a threat to both the striaght and LGBT communities. When people realize that no one person is better than another, no person is perfect nor ever will be and that we are all just struggling to survive in this world and hopefully make it better, THAT is when we will stop the petty bickering and begin to come together.

Brian K Beckett

July 10th, 2008, 01:41 PM

To be honest with you, over half of the females I know have had some kind of sexual relationship with another female, and about 25% of the males have had relations with other males. The sad part about this is that females tend to do it to get attention from males... and that's what disgusts me. If you're really gay then stay true to yourself, but to pretend to be gay is just a discgrace to the straight & gay communities. It gives gay people a bad name because not all gay people are promiscuous.

Thats the part about it I like!!! LOL

But seriously if thats what they want to do what affect does it have on anyone else???

And if thats what a person likes to do for fun and they do that then arent they staying true to themselves???

Its better to stay true to yourself then to be true to someone elses perseption of who you are...

SilverFox

July 10th, 2008, 04:24 PM

I guess it is true the path to **** is paved with good intentions.

Jeremy

July 10th, 2008, 05:33 PM

I guess it is true the path to **** is paved with good intentions.

Well, the path to heaven certainly isn't paved with bad intentions. That's the gist of tolerance.

anb_swrk

July 15th, 2008, 08:29 PM

I will leave this thread with this:

I would rather be hated for what I am, then loved for what I am not!

It's sad that some individuals have to fake who they are to get acceptance into a community, friendship, or even a single hello!

landlord

July 24th, 2008, 02:07 AM

Just back from vacation and wanted to check on this thread.
anb_swrk-Please know that you are respected and appreciated for who you are and your convictions. I agree with you and Brian, if you can't be yourself for fear of being ridiculed and being called names, it is not you that has the problem. The person doing the name calling/judging is the one who has the problem.
SilverFox "I guess it is true the path to **** is paved with good intentions." What are your intentions? Do they promote love, peace and compassion or judgement and degradation?
Travelling abroad I observe such a wide array of lifestyles and cultures and what I find refreshing is that most other countries are accepting and welcoming no matter the color of skin, religious affiliation or sexual orientation. It is quite ironic knowing that our ancestors came to this country to escape oppression of beliefs.

SilverFox

July 24th, 2008, 12:01 PM

So called "tolerance" is just a liberal's way of stating that anything goes, there are no rules for a good and moral life. If it feels good-do it!! No black and white issues for libs, they live in a gray world. I have a real big flash----there are rights and wrongs and while we should love our fellow man, we sure don't have to support and approve of degenerate lifestyles. Since when did accepting perversion equate to accepting other's beliefs???? Anyone who prefers Europe to the USA should feel free to hop the next plane. I think the hippies and flower children burned out on drugs in the 60's.

JIMMY

July 24th, 2008, 12:05 PM

landlord

July 24th, 2008, 02:09 PM

I am a republican who happens to lean towards libertarian now, not so much liberal in my fundamental beliefs but do know that there are rules for a good and moral life. They are called the 10 commandments. If followed they would make the world a much better place. And you can find those sames rules/laws in every religion, but the people seem to ignore and do what they want.
No one is asking for YOUR support, what they are asking for is fairness and a right to live their life the way that they feel God has made them. You are judging them if you feel you know better or have the ultimate authority on the matter.
Since when did allowing bigotry, hatred, intollerance and condemnation become part of the mainstream?
I agree anyone who prefers to live in another country should have the right if they are willing to give up some things. I can't speak for Europe but I know firsthand that some 3rd world countries are much more on top of things than the US. I don't know if it is due to being the underdog and having to work harder or just because they are not tied up with all the red tape that we have here for whatever we try to do. Econonmically, socially and healthwise I am impressed with the way our neighbors to the south, not so much Mexico yet, tackle the hard problems first, they seek the root cause and focus on that instead of putting a bandaid on a situation and repairing the damage now.
I don't know about the 60's, hippies or flower children but apparently something more than drugs has affected the compassion and sensitivity of the American psyche.

Jeremy

July 24th, 2008, 02:29 PM

So called "tolerance" is just a liberal's way of stating that anything goes, there are no rules for a good and moral life. If it feels good-do it!!

You're talking about moral relativism and hedonism, personal beliefs people define themselves with. Tolerance, on the other hand, is something you apply to other people.

Tolerance is really simple. It starts with: You can't kill people you don't agree with, so you have to somehow peacefully coexist. You don't have to support it, or even accept it, you just don't concern yourself with eradicating it. Do no harm.

In other words, the road to Heaven isn't paved with bad intentions.

neverinthepaper

July 24th, 2008, 02:55 PM

As long as the actions of an individual do not directly harm or increase the possibility of direct harm to others, then their actions or lack thereof should not concern others. You do no have to adapt all of the habits and lifestyles that you encounter in a lifetime, nor even advocate them. However, the existence of these diverse lifestyles offer wonderful opportunites for parents to discuss these same lifestyles with their children in ways that do not condemn the INDIVIDUALS who practice these behaviors.
Hate the sin, but love the sinner, etc.

SilverFox

July 24th, 2008, 04:08 PM

One thing I have noticed about so many of the liberal bent-they can find so much to harp and complain about in our great Country while all the while being in absolute awe of third world dictatorships like Cuba. I don't know if this is a form of mental illness or just living in a "twilight zone" of make believe. We are the greatest Country ever and our strong Christian beliefs and values are a huge part of that greatness. Something has to separate us from animals in the field and that something is- we are a moral people who have rules we live by and we don't compromise with evil.

landlord

July 24th, 2008, 06:16 PM

For sure, We are the greatest country in the world and it has come about by allowing people from every walk of life, every nation, every color and every belief, etc to come together and cohabitate.
Tolerance as Jeremy quotes is what our country is founded on. If you want your freedom to do whatever it is you want to do, then you have to allow the other person the same freedom, of course within reason. If those freedoms infringe on your safety or wellbeing, then you have the right to voice an opinion or take legal action. That is what our great country is about.
Evil comes in many shapes, sizes, disguises and voices. That is why it is up to each individual to live his or her life in accordance with the God given direction he offers. Some however choose to ignore that, distort that or use it as a moratorium to force their thinking, behavior or lifestyle to the point of bigotry, hate, violence and oppression. We are better than that, or CAN be better than that.
I just had a family member mugged, his head beaten with somekind of weapon and left for dead. No he was not gay, but that should not make a difference. If we do not show respect and compassion for a person, any person our world is no better than the extremist muslims who kill for what they believe, behead for religious reasons.
 ****** Double Post *********
You're talking about moral relativism and hedonism, personal beliefs people define themselves with. Tolerance, on the other hand, is something you apply to other people.

Tolerance is really simple. It starts with: You can't kill people you don't agree with, so you have to somehow peacefully coexist. You don't have to support it, or even accept it, you just don't concern yourself with eradicating it. Do no harm.

In other words, the road to Heaven isn't paved with bad intentions.

Very well put Jeremy. I think far too many forget that words have consequences. The words, the tone or the intent can invoke the reaction of others to the point of evil, violence and murder.

landlord

July 25th, 2008, 07:32 PM

:argue:
I KNOW this will create some interest and get some feedback and I look forward to just that.
The LGBT community is anxiously awaiting the election of Sen. Obama to the office of President. He at times seems to support the family values people and at other times the LGBT community. What are your perceptions?

The AFA, American Family Association, is sending out a barage of emails asking America to boycott McDonalds Restaurants because McDonalds has chosen to support a large group of their employees who happen to be of the LGBT group. Is this crazy? The boycott that is.

Is the media machine making your decisions this election?

Wanted to restate the the initial thread.
How do you think the candidates are doing with all their speeches and visits these days? Have you changed your position or gotten more confused?

Brian K Beckett

July 26th, 2008, 12:37 AM

Well my thoughts on this is Obamma like pretty much any politician is and will just play both sides of the fence. I personally dont think that gay marriage is a top 10 priority of any presidential candadate.

As far as the AFA calling for a boycott I am not going to stop eating at McDonalds because of it and I doubt the majority of people against gay issues will boycott it either. If the AFA wants to call for a boycott then I guess that is their right to do so, their calling for a boycott is not an infringement on anyones rights.

People will ultimatly use the media macheine to influence their decision except for the strict party voters. As much as I dont like modern day media how else is a person to find out what the candidates thoughts or concerns are. I wish the media would just report what happens and not manipulate things to get rateings, I think by just stateing what happens allows people to make better decisions but then again it is ultimatly the voters responsibility to sift thru the smut that is peddeled thru the media and make a decision.

landlord

July 26th, 2008, 02:58 AM

Very true Brian yet very disheartening. I want a candidate I can believe in and put my hopes in. I am tired of the fence riders and anyone who cannot take a stand and commit. I think the issue that either candidate stresses at a given time stem from where they are making their speech or to what crowd they are catering to.

As for the AFA, they can call for a boycott, that is their right, I just don't want to be on their mailing list. I have tried to contact them to remove my email address but even that link does not work. Once they get you in their system, you are THEIRS. lol It is kind of funny that any organization can think they can force their beliefs on another person or organization but that is what the media machine is all about. That is how advertising, business and religions continue to flourish.

If we want to be informed we have to listen to the news media or read the biased press of our day. Until we can take the human factor out of reporting, there will always be a slant to the left, to the right or a story told with the details influenced by the teller, the environment or the time in which it is being told.

The Bible is just such a book. It was given to man to be a guide and resource with stories, parables of that day but meant to be adaptable to men and women throughout the ages. There are those who want to pick and choose which passages they can adapt and then take other passages verbatim. The Bible was subjective and time oriented definetly but the divine purpose was to make it ever beneficial to all peoples as a guide to draw people closer to their inner spiritual being. Anyone who gets caught up on verbage, grammar or stuck in single mode thinking is missing the mark.

Once we reach a higher level of spiritual awareness, we can see how blinded and shielded we were by not allowing our spiritual eyes to open and see the compassion, the beauty and the love that God has waiting for us. It is not an easy process and the world or life will try to keep you from getting there with anything it has at it's disposal. Anyone who thinks they have arrived, has barely scratched the surface.

landlord

July 29th, 2008, 03:02 AM

Well well, we got a good one brewing here! Keep all punches abouve the belt and listen to my instructions...have a good clean fight. We'll schedule it for twelve rounds...

LOL
No punches please! Some love taps maybe. :)

Not much being said so I don't think twelve rounds will be called for.

Not much news on the political scene or from the political scene it seems these days.
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LOL
No punches please! Some love taps maybe. :)

Not much being said so I don't think twelve rounds will be called for.

Not much news on the political scene or from the political scene it seems these days.

"Ten supporters who make a donation in any amount by midnight this Thursday, July 31st, will be selected to fly to Denver, spend a couple of nights in a hotel, participate in the convention, and go Backstage with Barack. Each supporter who is selected will also get to bring a guest along to share the experience."
I just received this email so I guess the focus is bringing in the cash by enticing people with the possibility to meet Obama backstage. Is this a new tactic to bring in the crowds while filling their coffers?

landlord

August 10th, 2008, 03:03 AM

Michelle Obama Connects the Dots
June 27th, 2008 · No Comments
Faith In America today praised Michelle Obama for connecting the historical dots of discrimination and prejudice for Americans in a speech yesterday in New York.

The wife of Democratic Presidential Nominee U.S. Sen. Barack Obama stated during the speech that African-Americans and gay and lesbian citizens have marched on the journey toward full equality.

“We are all only here because of those who marched and bled and died, from Selma to Stonewall, in the pursuit of a more perfect union,” she was quoted to say in an Associated Press article.

Brent Childers. executive director of Faith In America, today thanked Michelle Obama for recognizing that history holds a valuable lesson for the pursuit of equality in America.

“When Michelle Obama makes that connection, it will eventually lead Americans to recognize religion-based prejudice and discrimination as the commonality of not only injustices against African-Americans and the gay and lesbian community but also women, interracial couples as well as religious minorities.

“The California Supreme Court in its recent ruling on marriage equality made that same connection…that deep-seated prejudice within majoritarian institutions cannot stand as a barrier to social justice.”
 ****** Double Post *********
No argument any more’
June 17th, 2008 · No Comments
It’s the age old nature /nurture debate; is a person born gay or is he or she conditioned by their environment? Now according to results from a study carried out by Swedish and UK brain researchers, one’s sexual preference is set in the womb.

Scans see ‘gay brain differences’
The brains of gay men and women look like those found in heterosexual people of the opposite sex, research suggests.

The Swedish study, published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences journal, compared the size of the brain’s halves in 90 adults.

Gay men and heterosexual women had halves of a similar size, while the right side was bigger in lesbian women and heterosexual men.

A UK scientist said this was evidence sexual preference was set in the womb.

“As far as I’m concerned there is no argument any more - if you are gay, you are born gay.”
Dr Qazi Rahman
Queen Mary, University of London

Scientists have noticed for some time that homosexual people of both sexes have differences in certain cognitive abilities, suggesting there may be subtle differences in their brain structure.

This is the first time, however, that scientists have used brain scanners to try to look for the source of those differences.

A group of 90 healthy gay and heterosexual adults, men and women, were scanned by the Karolinska Institute scientists to measure the volume of both sides, or hemispheres, of their brain.

When these results were collected, it was found that lesbian women and heterosexual men shared a particular “asymmetry” in their hemisphere size, while heterosexual women and gay men had no difference between the size of the different halves of their brain.

In other words, structurally, at least, gay men were more like heterosexual women, and gay women more like heterosexual men.

A further experiment found that in one particular area of the brain, the amygdala, there were other significant differences.

In heterosexual men and lesbian women, there were more nerve “connections” in the right side of the amygdala, compared with the left.

The reverse, with more neural connections in the left amygdala, was the case in homosexual men and heterosexual women.

The Karolinska team said that these differences could not be mainly explained by “learned” effects, but needed another mechanism to set them, either before or after birth.

‘Fight, flight or mate’

Dr Qazi Rahman, a lecturer in cognitive biology at Queen Mary, University of London, said that he believed that these brain differences were laid down early in fetal development.

“As far as I’m concerned there is no argument any more - if you are gay, you are born gay,” he said.

The amygdala, he said, was important because of its role in “orientating”, or directing, the rest of the brain in response to an emotional stimulus - be it during the “fight or flight” response, or the presence of a potential mate.

“In other words, the brain network which determines what sexual orientation actually ‘orients’ towards is similar between gay men and straight women, and between lesbian women and straight men.

“This makes sense given that gay men have a sexual preference which is like that of women in general, that is, preferring men, and vice versa for lesbian women.”

mark

August 10th, 2008, 09:36 AM

Dr Qazi Rahman, a lecturer in cognitive biology at Queen Mary, University of London, said that he believed that these brain differences were laid down early in fetal development.

“As far as I’m concerned there is no argument any more - if you are gay, you are born gay,” he said.

........what a crock.
This professor is probably a homosexual himself & will say anything
to keep his lifestyle active.

Obama & his wife needs to keep beating the drum for
the homosexual/lesbian cause......clear up to election day.

Oh by the way, are your tires properly inflated?.......see ya mark

landlord

August 10th, 2008, 01:10 PM

........what a crock.
This professor is probably a homosexual himself & will say anything
to keep his lifestyle active.

Obama & his wife needs to keep beating the drum for
the homosexual/lesbian cause......clear up to election day.

Oh by the way, are your tires properly inflated?.......see ya mark

According to McCain, he agrees with Obama about the tire issue, not that it will make a drastic difference.

I suppose any closeminded person will say whatever they feel necessary to keep their propaganda going, be it right wing, left wing, radical Christians or atheists, gay or straight. Until you have an original thought of your own on a topic and stop quoting the rhetoric of what YOU have heard all of your life or what YOU feel the scripture says and realize that the scripture is inclusive of ALL people, you are a "resounding gong or clanging symbol" to quote from the WORD.

And as for the racial, "beating the drum", slur.....typical of last ditch attempts at refocusing the issue.

The "YOU" I am referring to is the fundamentalist Christians and anyone else who want to use scripture subversively and not inclusively as it was intended. It took thousands of years to overcome the churches stance(their interpretation of scripture taken out of context and time) that slavery was acceptable, women were a lesser being than men and more. If the Christian faith can and has recognized that they have been wrong and misinterpreted scripture before, why is it so hard to fathom that it is happening again?
Again, do your own research, study the scriptures, the original text and the context in which it is written, be prepared for some new spiritual insight.

mark

August 11th, 2008, 12:38 AM

Again, do your own research, study the scriptures, the original text and the context in which it is written, be prepared for some new spiritual insight.

I did a little research on this years ago.

Here's what my Bible says about this:

Gen 2:21 from my Bible says:

But for Adam no suitable helper was found. 21 So the LORD God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man's ribs [h] and closed up the place with flesh. 22 Then the LORD God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.

I read that a woman was placed there for the man. Names were Adam & Eve, not Adam & Steve.

OK, here's more thoughts about this topic:
My Bible in Leviticus 18:22 says:

22 " 'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.

Here's one that is even more harsh in Lev 20:13:

13 " 'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

Reading that tells me that we weren't "born" homosexual. That's what those say that wants everyone else to accept their lifestyle.

Sorry, I don't buy that at all.

However, I do hope Obama keeps talking & talking about it.

Lot's of voter's decisions in
November a whole lot easier.

I know mine already is...........see ya mark

Jeremy

August 11th, 2008, 02:00 AM

I barely have an opinion on the social debate of "choose to be gay" vs. "born gay". Honestly, I don't personally see anything wrong with gay people choosing that lifestyle, so I think appealing to "born that way" doesn't change the fact that it isn't anyone's business.

Anyway, just wanted to say that before I said what I do have an opinion on, the science...

Dr. Rahman didn't really think the study through if he's concluding that asymmetrical hemispheres of the brain prove that homosexuals are born homosexual. The parameters of the study don't support the conclusion. Decades ago they thought the brain was immutable after development, in which case Rahman may have been on to something. But now scientists know that changes occur in the organization of the brain as a result of experience. It's called neuroplasticity. In studies done on Buddhist monks, for example, they've found that long-term regular meditation physically alters the structure of the brain. They're not sure how exactly it happens, but it's observable. In the grand debate of nature vs. nurture, the trump card against "nature" is neuroplasticity. It's been proven that the brain physically changes through nurture.

It's entirely possible that the asymmetrical brain structure in homosexuals occured by experience. For a true study, Rahman would have to examine newborns, a lot of them, find similar asymmetry, and then wait 15 to 20 years and see if they report being gay. Maybe they were born that way, but concluding that they were born that way would require tracing a group from newborn to adulthood since the brain can change through experience.

But again, to me, choosing that lifestyle is fine too. Ain't nobody's business but your own. Saying "born that way" may help them feel better about themselves psychologically, but biologically it's far from proven.

landlord

August 11th, 2008, 02:25 AM

GUESS WHAT? My Bible reads the same way! I was raised in the strictest of Protestant churches, grew up with hellfire and brimstone sermons designed to scare you into submission and that works for some. I had one of those Moms who gave me the desire and permission to learn and grow and to explore my spirituality and the society in which we live. I went to the altar at an early age and accepted Jesus as my personal Savior. But I had the church telling me I should hate this person and that God wanted this group dead or changed etc. That is not what my spiritual soul was telling me and not how I saw Jesus telling us to live.
As for the Adam and Eve story, as I stated before take into context the time in which it was written. It was an unpopulated world and Adam and Eve’s purpose was to go forth and multiply, like the animals. Adam and STEVE could not have populated the earth but God did not say anything derogatory about same sex relationships.
In fact, if you want the facts, the word homosexual was not even a word until the 18th or 19th century. That is the time when there were various translations of the Bible in publication, that is until the Catholic Church had the previously translators killed and their transcripts destroyed or attempted to. Finally King James, who himself had several same sex partners himself, told the church to use the version we now know with his name attached. It is always interesting that those with something to hide protest the loudest.
 ****** Double Post *********
As for Leviticus:
These two verses in Leviticus read as follows in the King James Version:
“Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind; it is an abomination.” (Leviticus 18:22)
“If a man also lie with mankind as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood be upon them.” (Leviticus 20:13)
Before delving into these two verses, it would be helpful to read How Language is Interpreted, which is part of the discussion of Romans 1.
If we wish to understand the true meaning of these verses, we must look at their context, both textual and historical. Until we understand what prompted these rules in Old Testament times, we will not be able to determine if the rules should be applied to the case of two people in committed, loving relationship.
The text itself gives us a big clue as to the intended meaning. Three different times we are specifically told that the rules set forth in chapters 18 and 20 are meant to prevent the Israelites from doing what the Egyptians and Canaanites did. The term Canaanites refers to the group of nations who lived in the land into which the Israelites migrated when they left Egypt. It follows, therefore, if we can determine what type of homosexual behavior was common among the Canaanites and Egyptians, we will better understand what these verses were meant to prohibit.
Biblical historians tell us the Canaanite religions surrounding the Israelites at the time of Leviticus often included fertility rites consisting of sexual rituals. These rituals were thought to bring the blessing of the god or goddess on crop and livestock production. During the rituals, whole families, including husbands, wives, mothers, fathers, sons, daughters, cousins, aunts and uncles would sometimes have sex. Also included was sex with temple prostitutes. In short, every kind of sexual practice imaginable was performed at these rituals, including homosexual sex.
Consider one specific example. Historians tell us that many Canaanites and Egyptians worshipped a goddess of love and fertility called Astarte or Ishtar. Within her temples were special priests called assinu, who were deemed to have special powers. Physical contact with the assinu was believed to ward off evil and promote good luck. These priests were, in effect, living good luck charms, and worshipers would often ritually touch them as part of their worship practices. Sexual intercourse was considered especially effective for gaining the goddess’s favor, because the male worshiper was offering his greatest possession, semen (which was thought to be the essence of life), to the goddess through her priests. Depositing semen in the body of a priest of the goddess was believed to guarantee one’s immortality. Similar cultic sexual practices flourished in connection with many other ancient pagan deities.

landlord

August 11th, 2008, 02:27 AM

This is what was going on in Canaan and Egypt at the time the Levitical rules were announced — homosexual temple prostitution. And as already noted, Leviticus 18 and 20 specifically say they were written to address pagan religious practices. Leviticus 18 begins with the admonition, “You shall not do as they do in the land of Egypt, where you lived, and you shall not do as they do in the land of Canaan, where I am bringing you.” (18:3) Chapter 20 is even more specific, beginning with an injunction against the pagan practices associated with a god named Molech. And both chapters include long lists of sexual practices common in the cultic rituals we mentioned above. However, neither of them speaks to the question of whether two people of the same sex can live in loving relationship with the blessing of God.
In fact, historians tell us our model of loving, long-term homosexual relationships did not meaningfully exist in Canaanite culture. This was a tribal culture in which it would have been virtually impossible to form such relationships. Offspring were essential to survival in this primitive agricultural economy. Moreover, there were rigid distinctions between women’s work and men’s work. If two men had lived together as a couple, for example, one of them would have been placed in the position of doing women’s work, and the presence of a man working among the women of the village would not have been tolerated.
It simply is not reasonable to believe the author of Leviticus intended to prohibit a form of homosexual relationship that did not exist at the time. When read in textual and historical context, the prohibitions in Leviticus 18 and 20 are clearly directed at homosexual temple prostitution, and that is how they should be applied.
Some people may object, saying, “But if you ignore the context and just read the words of Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 in black and white, they appear to prohibit all sex between men, not just sex in pagan rituals.” But that is the whole point: The meaning of words depends on context. Remember, the words of 1 Corinthians 11 also appear to require long hair and head coverings for all women in all circumstances. But, because we have studied the context, we know that is not what was meant. A text taken out of context is pretext. Let’s apply the same common-sense rule here.
The Leviticus passages were clearly written in the context of pagan religious ritual. Since we are not bringing a question about the appropriateness of cultic sex practices for modern Christians, we can safely set aside these clobber passages.

landlord

August 11th, 2008, 02:28 AM

As for being born this way, Jesus clearly states that some are born this way. Since the term homosexual was not created at that time, the common term for gay men was Eunuch. There were three types of eunuchs and they were all held in high esteem and held high ranks in the houses in which they served. There was the castrated male(not a pleasant thought) who wanted to serve as the protector of the Kings wife but the King would not allow just anyone to be the “bedmate” of his wife. The King or high ranking person had to protect his lineage and thus would use a castrated male in this position.
The second kind of eunuch listed is the one who becomes one for religious reasons, such as the Catholic Church Priests and their vow of celibacy. Then there are those who are born eunuchs. It is quite clear that these men were born with no desire or attraction for women.

Matthew 19:10-12

Here Jesus refers to "eunuchs who have been so from birth." This terminology ("born eunuchs") was used in the ancient world to refer to homosexual men. Jesus indicates that being a "born eunuch" is a gift from God.
Some Christians confidently assert that God did not create homosexual people "that way." This is important because they realize if God did create gays "that way," rejecting them would be tantamount to rejecting God’s work in creation. In pressing their “creation order” argument, some Christians are fond of saying, "God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve!" To bolster their position, they often cite Jesus’ words in Matthew 19:4-5, where he responds to a question about whether divorce is permissible:
“Jesus answered, ‘Have you not read that the One who made them at the beginning made them male and female, and said, “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife and the two shall become one flesh”? Therefore, what God has joined together, let no one separate.’ ”
From these words, some Christians draw the conclusion that heterosexuality is the creation norm and, thus, heterosexual marriage is the only legitimate way for people to form romantic relationships. Ironically, Jesus’ own words in this very same passage refute these conclusions.
As the dialogue continues, Jesus’ disciples are disturbed by his strict teaching on divorce. The disciples say that if divorce is not a ready option, perhaps it would be best for a man not to marry a woman. Jesus responds:
“Not everyone can accept this teaching, but only those to whom it is given. For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Let anyone accept this who can.” (Matthew 19:11-12)
Jesus feels no need to “cure” these born eunuchs. He speaks no words of condemnation. Rather he lists people born gay alongside another honored class (eunuchs for the kingdom), and accepts them as a natural part of God’s creation order.
Thus, when Matthew 19 is read as a whole, we see Jesus teaches that most people are created for heterosexual marriage. (We too accept this as God’s predominant creation paradigm.) But, unlike some modern Christians, Jesus does not see this as the only honorable way to live. He acknowledges that some human beings have been created by God to follow a less common, but equally legitimate path. There are some who have been eunuchs from birth — made that way by God.
So whether you buy it or not, makes no difference to me but when you stand before Jesus and he looks into your heart, what will he see? Love and compassion or a hard heart filled with outdated, out of touch, misconstrued passages written thousands of years ago for a people who lived thousands of years ago?

As for my sources, in no particular order,
Jesus, aka the Holy Spirit,
www.wouldjesusdiscriminate.com
 ****** Double Post *********

But again, to me, choosing that lifestyle is fine too. Ain't nobody's business but your own. Saying "born that way" may help them feel better about themselves psychologically, but biologically it's far from proven.

And thus the debate continues. If Jesus says that some are born that way, (Mathew 19:10-12) and you are a religious person, that should suffice. For the science of it all, it is like proving the existence of God, some take it on faith, others doubt, some will never believe, some believe wholeheartedly.

landlord

August 11th, 2008, 03:50 AM

Amen, indeed!!!! What an absolute sick joke!!! Gee, glad to know that anyone who speaks out against an unnatural lifestyle that is condemned in the Bible is on the same level as a terrorist. I realize that if you throw a rock into a pack of dogs, the one that is hit is the one that hollers. Sad that people can't have a discussion about homosexuals without being attacked.

Let me reiterate, we are not promoting unnatural lifestyles as in condemned in the Bible. We are talking about loving, commited relationships. This is why people(fundamentalist) have a hard time; the instances used in the Bible were to rebuke pagan rituals, male prostitutes and other unnatural or immoral acts. Since the word "homosexual" was not even created until the last couple of centuries and then inserted in place of the original word, Christians and many other have been indoctrinated into believing what they read as the gospel, when we know it is merely someones interpretation centuries later. The unnatural acts mostly denounced were committed by heterosexual males on other males and females, in other words RAPE. This was the custom to show superiority over other tribes, slaves, or unwelcomed guests(Sodom and Gomorrah).
I know as a Christian, we are supposed to be meek and humble but I can not stand to see others, ANYONE, treated unjustly or unfairly. And that is what the Christian Church has been doing to the youth of the church who feel different and can't trust anyone in their church enough to talk to them. That is why there are so many young people commiting suicide and so many issues of depression, drug/alcohol abuse. They feel out of place in a world where they are to