It's a GREAT day for freedom ...............

[mark]

...............the Iraq elections were held today & the radio news said there was a 71% turnout to vote. This is even with potential violence that may happen to those citizens.

WOW, we don't even get those kind of numbers here in our own country at election time & we are free citizens! It looks like a very good day for Prez Bush -- bad day for the dems.

Hmmm, I wonder how CNN & the liberal networks will spin this one??

Any ideas?? ...............see ya mark

[kdown]

We never got that percent when we PAID people to vote.

[Chuck]

...............the Iraq elections were held today & the radio news said there was a 71% turnout to vote. This is even with potential violence that may happen to those citizens.

WOW, we don't even get those kind of numbers here in our own country at election time & we are free citizens! It looks like a very good day for Prez Bush -- bad day for the dems.

Hmmm, I wonder how CNN & the liberal networks will spin this one??

Any ideas?? ...............see ya mark


I wouldn't jump and dance just yet. 71% is only of people registered to vote NOT total population. Iraq's population is tiny compared to the US even if it was higher than our turnout.

For all you know Iraq may only 100 registered voters.

[kdown]

Registered or not. Reports indicate over 11 million voted out of a population of 15 million

[ponto]

11 million voted, 15 million registered, Iraq has a population of 27 million.

[Chuck]

So it's really only 36 percent or about there. That only depends on what the population is now after all the KIA's.

Also that 71% is down 3% from their 1st election.

Spreading Fredom like Peanut Butter.

[kdown]

Words from Iraq…

Yesterday Iraqis successfully passed another chapter of the democratic transformation of their country.
We’re not sure if we put the right choice on the ballot paper put I’m 100% sure that Iraqis made the right choice by resorting to the ballot boxes to the solve their problems.

A dear friend of mine sent me a few words to express his happiness and hope and I think his words reflect what millions of Iraqis felt about yesterday’s historic event.
He asked me to share his words with you, and I am:


Like eyelashes close in delight upon the sight of one's lover, the boxes closed their lips on Iraqis’ ballots.
The tyrants forced us to remain silent for decades but yesterday our fingers spoke out loud in purple.
The fingers wore their purple wedding dress while the enemies wore the black of hatred and evil.
Elections have become the new tradition of Iraqis, those new democrats who proudly want to show the world their new experiment but on the other side there are our “cousins” who still want us to go back to the sheep barn.

We marched to vote and we respected our differences while Saddam is creeping in his cage chewing on his hatred.

From 59 to 64 to 70%...in one year our people have proven that the future belongs to them and not those whose claws scarred Iraq’s neck.

A few bombs and some bullets, that’s all what the terrorists could do to interrupt the carnival in Baghdad. The people heard the explosions but those weren’t loud enough to distract the marching hearts from their destination. I saw our policemen yesterday showing their hearts too when they refused to wear their armors, maybe because they didn’t want to let anything stand between our hearts from theirs.

I asked an election official about the problems they faced. He answered laughing:

“Iraqis are like sweet fruit, and their sweetness lies in their big hearts and meeting them at the voting station yesterday was enjoyable like eating a good plate of sweets! They cast their ballots while I enjoyed the Iraqi symphony of patriotism”.

It was a day of happiness for Iraqis and a day of loss for the strangers who thought their camels brought them to a land void of patriots.

It is a day we will await to come again for four long years…to do the right thing again or to correct the mistake if we did one yesterday.
Anyway, I believe we left a mark on the face of history, a purple mark that will not be forgotten easily.

God bless Iraq and Iraq’s friends throughout this world. It wasn’t our day alone; it was your day too.

[Jeremy]

Pretty sure everyone turned out to vote in this country's first election way back in the 1700s. Give Iraq 200 years of the American Way and you'll hear things like "Go out and vote? Pfft it's 150 degrees out there! I'm staying in today" (Note: Added a few degrees for global warming) :)

[tkcomer]

It depends on who they elect and if they can control the people. Remember, this administration hates democracy if the people elect leaders this administration doesn’t like. Iran’s leaders are elected by the people. And Iran is certainly on Bush’s hate list. And this administration was talking up about the free elections in Egypt. But recoiled in horror at the one fundamentalist group that saw large gains at the polls. They shivered when the people of Spain threw out the ones that were for the war, forcing Spain to call its troops home. And anti-war sentiment by the people is causing a lot of countries to pull their troops out. Don’t be fooled by this administration’s praise for a democracy in Iraq. Because they hate ANY democracy that doesn’t cower before them or disagrees with them in any way. They would be bad-mouthing the people of Japan for pulling out if we didn’t owe them so much money.

[mark]

..............regardless of what the actual percentages are.......those people have the chance to vote & they did. At least that's better than a dictatorship they've had for decades.

The liberal press won't say anything good about Iraq or Bush, regardless of what it is. Here's an email I received from an uncle recently that helps prove my point:





>> > Subject: Did you know?

>> > The Media must have missed this Information

>> > Did you know that 47 countries have reestablished
>> > their embassies in Iraq?
>> >
>> > Did you know that the Iraqi government currently
>> > employs 1.2 million Iraqi
>> > people?
>> >
>> > Did you know that 3100 schools have been renovated,
>> > 364 schools are under
>> > rehabilitation, 263 schools are now under
>> > construction
>> > and 38 new schools have been built in Iraq?
>> >
>> > Did you know that Iraq's higher educational
>> > structure consists of 20
>> > Universities, 46 Institutes or colleges and 4
>> > research centers, all
>> > currently operating?
>> >
>> > Did you know that 25 Iraq students departed for the
>> > United States in January
>> > 2005 for the re-established Fulbright program?
>> >
>> > Did you know that the Iraqi Navy is operational?!
>> > They have 5-100-foot
>> > patrol craft, 34 smaller vessels and a naval
>> > infantry regiment.
>> >
>> > Did you know that Iraq's Air Force consists of three
>> > operational squadrons,
>> > which includes 9 reconnaissance and 3 US C-130
>> > transport aircraft (under Iraqi operational control)
>> > which operate day and
>> > night, and will soon add 16 UH-1 helicopters and 4
>> > Bell Jet Rangers?
>> >
>> > Did you know that Iraq has a counter-terrorist unit
>> > and a Commando
>> > Battalion?
>> >
>> > Did you know that the Iraqi Police Service has over
>> > 55,000 fully trained and
>> > equipped police officers?
>> >
>> > Did you know that there are 5 Police Academies in
>> > Iraq that produce over
>> > 3500 new officers each 8 weeks?
>> >
>> > Did you know there are more than 1100 building
>> > projects going on in Iraq?
>> > They include 364 schools, 67 public clinics, 15
>> > hospitals, 83 railroad
>> > stations, 22 oil facilities, 93 water facilities and
>> > 69 electrical
>> > facilities.
>> >
>> > Did you know that 96% of Iraqi chil dren under the
>> > age of 5 have received
>> > the first 2 series of polio vaccinations?
>> >
>> > Did you know that 4.3 million Iraqi children were
>> > enrolled in primary school
>> > by mid October?
>> >
>> > Did you know that there are 1,192,000 cell phone
>> > subscribers in Iraq and
>> > phone use has gone up 158%?
>> >
>> > Did you know that Iraq has an independent media that
>> > consists of 75 radio
>> > stations, 180 newspapers and 10 television stations?
>> >
>> > Did you know that the Baghdad Stock Exchange opened
>> > in June of 2004?
>> >
>> > Did you know that 2 candidates in the Iraqi
>> > presidential election had a
>> > televised debate recently?
>> >
>> > OF COURSE WE DIDN'T KNOW!
>> >
>> > WHY DIDN'T WE KNOW? OUR MEDIA WOULDN'T TELL US!
>> >
>> > Instead of reflecting our love for our country and
>> > the incredible job our
>> > people are doing in Iraq, we get photos of flag
>> > burning incidents at Abu
>> > Ghraib and people throwing snowballs at the
>> > presidential motorcades. Instead
>> > of hearing reports o n the amazing progress being
>> > made, all we hear is
>> > suggestions that it's time to get out.
>> >
>> > The lack of accentuating the positive in Iraq serves
>> > two purposes. It is
>> > intended to undermine the world's perception of the
>> > United States thus
>> > minimizing consequent support, and it is intended to
>> > discourage American
>> > citizens. It appears to be working. You'd better
>> > question the motives of the
>> > American media -- whose side are they on!


I realize one can't believe anything you read on the internet, but, one thing is for sure, I'd say even if some of those things above are going on our "so-called" non biased press wouldn't tell you so.

Just more proof the press hates Bush & is willing to go to almost any extreme to "take" him down. The funny part is.....the press will earn their money scratching their heads trying to spin this one when the truth is out there for all to see...................see ya mark

[tkcomer]

This is democracy under the point of a gun. And your tax dollars at work. Don’t forget, the US is 8 trillion dollars in debt. Are you ready to sacrifice your social security, Medicare, and Medicaid to force these countries to bow to our wishes? That is what’s happening right now. In order to rule the world, this administration wants to cut social programs to keep the war machine going. On countries that are no threat to us. And this administration is driving this country to bankruptcy by allowing massive increases in spending to keep their war machine going. Our founding fathers would have this bunch executed. For sticking their nose where it doesn’t belong. But the ignorant masses keep cheering them on. Just like they did Hitler. And Stalin. And Napoleon. And all the other demigods that destroyed their own countries by bankrupting them.

[dpolley]

You know, I bet democrats and certain people who post on this site would find something to complain about, or slam Bush even if we pulled out of Iraq tomorrow. If Bush resigned and announced that Billary Clinton (you know her; vice president of CNN{Clinton News Network}) would succeed him as President. No matter what this administration does, or doesn't do, democrats are doing nothing but making this country a laughingstock, and then complaining because other countries don't like us, or don't trust us. Go figure.

[Chuck]

If enjoy the fact that our Men and Women are being killed for a Freedom Battle that is not ours. That we have paid over 200 Billion dollars so far for another country to have freedom as we know it.

All this for people that are not Christians and will never become Christians.

It doesn't make sense to me how people can be so happy about this when our friends and families are the ones being killed.

If you cannot see that you President is spending us in to an unrecoverable state and is killing our people for his agenda then so be it.

But don't try to force feed us a false bill of goods to encourage us to jump on some type band wagon.

I will never buy this false bill of goods, not at the cost of my neighbors family.

[dpolley]

No one is force feeding you anything. However, reasoning such as what you present is starting to sound like a broken record. Not that either party has a grip on the real world, but the Dems will never hold the White House again as long as they grab at any chance and anything in order to get their collective face in or on the news, or until they actually speak with some common sense. No one takes any pleasure in the deaths of our fighting men and women. Don't make their deaths any less important by politicizing everything.

[Chuck]

We let these post go and we all seem to get along fine. The information is posted and the rest of us are suppose to dance around like everything is peachy wonderful.
Don't make their deaths any less important by politicizing everything.

Don't jump to a false conclusion based on a a right winged policy.

I am highly upset that 300,000 or however many Americans are over there fighting and dieing for a false, illegal war. They should be home with family for Christmas.

You can candy coat it anyway that helps you sleep at night. Call me a liberal if it makes you feel better. War is Death and Destruction.

It has already been proved that we were lied to about the reason for the start of this war and now we are basically stuck with it.

[stinkerbelle]

dpolley and mark are the only two broken records...apologists for their LORD G.W.Bush...neither of you defended the tax paying citizens of new orleans when bush and his cronies stood around with their fingers in their noses for a week...the best mark could come up with was blame the poor citizens for being too stupid to find a way out of n.o..bush did nothing wrong right mark and dpolley???...so let us all celebrate the iraqis all showing up to vote to end their national nightmare....a vote to send us home...LONG LIVE THE SEPERATION OF CHURCH AND STATE!!!!

[Foxy]

As far as the war, I support our troops, not the war. I think that we should have gone after Osama has hard as we did Huessien, but that is just one girl's opinion.
And as far as the Katrina episode, The fact remains that FEMA and the President CANNT do ANYTHING, unless help is asked for by the state that needs it. FEMA cannot rush in unless asked.
Bush and FEMA both offered help, it was the Govenor who refused the help, until it was too late.
But I guess that is Bush's fault for "forcing" them to accept help.

** Just curious... stinkerbell... do you support the troops overseas? And, did you do anything to help those affected by Hurricane Katrina?**

[mark]

dpolley and mark are the only two broken records...apologists for their LORD G.W.Bush...neither of you defended the tax paying citizens of new orleans when bush and his cronies stood around with their fingers in their noses for a week...the best mark could come up with was blame the poor citizens for being too stupid to find a way out of n.o..bush did nothing wrong right mark and dpolley???


Hmmm, I'm not sure about the rest of you, but, if there was a weather forecast warning me that 150mph+ winds were on the way to Maysville by Tuesday, ( 3 days later after original weather warning ) I would have NO problem leaving...poor or not.

At that moment, I could care less what any politician would be doing with that kind of a weather forecast facing me.
I guess dpolley & myself would be the only ones leaving Maysville ASAP.

Regarding leaving the area, I can take a hint, I wouldn't have to be told twice............see ya mark

[mark]

This is democracy under the point of a gun. And your tax dollars at work. Don’t forget, the US is 8 trillion dollars in debt. Are you ready to sacrifice your social security, Medicare, and Medicaid to force these countries to bow to our wishes? That is what’s happening right now. In order to rule the world, this administration wants to cut social programs to keep the war machine going. On countries that are no threat to us. And this administration is driving this country to bankruptcy by allowing massive increases in spending to keep their war machine going. Our founding fathers would have this bunch executed. For sticking their nose where it doesn’t belong. But the ignorant masses keep cheering them on. Just like they did Hitler. And Stalin. And Napoleon. And all the other demigods that destroyed their own countries by bankrupting them.

Am I ready to sacrifice my social (in)security & Medicare?? My friend, those social programs were broke loooooong before this war was started. Anyone who is depending on social (In)security for retirement purposes is only fooling themselves. There will be NO money there when we retire within 20 years. The Federal budget hasn't been balanced since 1969 because both parties has been spending like drunk sailors on shore leave.

Bush is a big time spender ...I'll admit that.....but, he isn't anymore of a pork spender that any of the previous Prez's since Reagan. I'm not going to research it, but I bet the pork projects here in the U.S are a lot higher in total dollars than this war is.

The war is only part of the total spending package. Bush can't do anything right in the dems eyes. I bet if Bush were to announce pulling out all troops tomorrow, the dems would complain that it didn't happen tonight.

In a way, the dems better be careful. If Bush brought all the troops home before November 2008, what would the dems have to complain about then?? ...............see ya mark

[Jeremy]

This one isn't a Democrat/Republican issue as far as I'm concerned. It's something we should be concerned about whatever our political labels. Training Iraqis to have better education, better military, and a better infrastructure only means that ten years down the road they'll be better equipped to fight the United States after they are back on their feet. Both Hussein and Bin Laden after all were trained by the US. Call me cynical but although they can now have free elections (undisputedly a good thing), that doesn't mean they'll always vote the way we'd like them too. Iraqi majority doesn't like the United States, even if we are helping them out. At best they tolerate us. Mostly, they are using us to rebuild because they have no choice considering we blew everything up. Free elections historically does not equal freedom. There were free elections in Rome when they voted in the dictator Julius Caesar. There were free elections in the United States when they voted in the Poll Tax and counted black people as only 3/4th citizens. In short, "free" societies can still be corrupt. Corruption in this particular area of the world goes a long way. Already they are voting in a "free" Muslim fundamentalist government. Women still get the shaft and fundamentalists still get the elected top positions. In my mind it's not how much has been spent on the war in dollars, or how many lives have been lost. It's whether or not it was worth it. World War II was (and my heart goes out to its veterans) a war that was worth it. In this (the Iraqi war), we have a toppled society, a cost in dollars and lives to rebuild it, and a replacement of that society with a scarily similar one. I don't see how it was worth it. The dictatorship of Hussein, and the myriad of terrorists that were there, have been replaced by an elected leadership who believes in the same ideals, and there's a whole new batch of recruited America haters. I really hope I'm wrong, and really there's no way to tell until ten, twenty, or thirty years down the road, but I don't see much of a change.

[tkcomer]

You know what? I could care less about free elections in Iraq. I could care less about elections in any foreign country. Why? It’s none of my business. Just like the founding fathers said it should be. If you don’t like how a country behaves, don’t trade with them. It’s that simple. We are in this mess because leaders of the free world have been trading with these murderous monsters for decades. Our underhanded dealings with these cutthroats have put us in a very bad position. And now our finest are fighting and dying in foreign lands because of our politician’s dirty deals with these devils. Our government has become so arrogant that they think the only solution is swinging a big stick. And over half of the people have been duped into believing them. My God, has no one picked up a history book? Have we become so dumbed down, that we are now no more than spectators at the Roman coliseum? Cheering for the lions? As the empire collapses in debt all around us? Have we become that blind and deaf to what this corrupt government, past and present is doing? I, for one, cannot cheer for the lions. Or the politicians that put them there.

[Jeremy]

Follow up to my last post, or "I'm Not Making This Up":

If you want to know the pulse of the Arab world, forget FoxNews, CNN, or any American news media for that matter and go to the largest Arab media network, Aljazeera. Aljazeera is the news source from Arabs to Arabs. The English version is here: http://english.aljazeera.net

Read the headlines. Not much good in there. Two particular articles about Arab government and how it relates to the United States that are interesting are:

In pursuit of Arab reform
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/967715B8-276C-4708-AC08-7FD102E13BA7.htm

Basically this article is saying the new government can't do squat until Arabs themselves want to change.

Some argue that introducing political reform to the Arab world is not a choice but an imperative given that Arab governments are interested in bringing their nations up to speed with the rest of the world.

Pay attention to difference between the will of the people and the will of the government. Government wants to play ball with the Western World. Average Iraqi, not so much. Other parts of the article call for an American enforcement of these changes. That means we will be there a long, long, long time. Forcing an entire country set in their ways to adopt an opposing way of life is arguably unethical, but undeniably takes generations of constant vigilance.

These are the questions on Iraqi's mind from the article:

"Are Arab governments willing to espouse political reforms from the inside, provided that the majority rejects change imposed from the outside? Is the man on the street capable of being an effective player in the reform process? Is the US genuine in wanting to democratise the Middle East? And are there viable home-grown alternatives to the US initiative?"

Basically, they don't trust us and they are deeply skeptical that the average Iraqi even wants reform.

And the other article, or "Why it's not a Great day for freedom"

Iraq needs free institutions not elections
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/2228248D-FEE7-40A8-B9D1-CEA96F698DB0.htm

As we now find ourselves yet again facing Iraqi elections, the charade of shifting faces and alliances is causing excitement among many political analysts in the West.

Yet, objectively speaking, nothing has changed in Iraq. So long as more attention is paid to the names and lists of elections than the nameless and faceless underlying institutions that run the country, the path of Iraq will continue along the same course.

As pressure continues to build on George W Bush to pull out of Iraq, emphasis has been placed on rebuilding the Iraqi army to help secure the country’s future.

The fact remains that Iraqis may vote as often as three times a year if that is deemed enjoyable, but as long as the rebuilding of the Iraqi army remains corrupt nothing will change.

Here's the best quotes:

Because security in Iraq has been largely an American affair, it has been developed according to American interests, inevitably insuring the corruption, mismanagement and deceit that have characterised the US occupation thus far. As Bush continues to discuss reconstruction, the actual course of Iraq's redevelopment has not changed.

How could the security of Iraq ever be placed in the hands of Americans, when the American presence is the cause of insecurity?

Here they are basically suggesting that we Americans are only there to make money off security. The rebuilding of the Iraqi army, and the security of the country itself, is beyond the scope off the US Military and private US firms are filling in the void, making oodles of money in the process.

To sum it up... they don't like us. They don't trust us. They think our patting ourselves on the back is total arrogance. We are training future potential enemies of the U.S. Go figure...

***************
So, as I said, this isn't a party issue. This is an American issue and we've screwed ourselves to the point where there's no way out of it. On one hand, you can't pull out and leave the country in shambles. On the other hand, staying there and putting things in order means we might be even worse off in the future. One thing I agree with is that complaining won't get us anywhere, simply because we are screwed no matter what we do. But don't take my word for it... take the Iraqi's.

[tkcomer]

Oh, don’t forget. The Bush administration doesn’t like anyone telling the truth. Aljazeera’s offices in Afghanistan and Iraq were bombed by us. Of course we said it was a mistake. But you have to wonder, two offices in two countries? By an administration that said they didn’t like Aljazeera reporting the whole story. You would think the “liberal” press in this country would be reporting that. But most of the “liberal” press is owned by big business. Guess what party they donate to? I’ll give ya a hint. It’s the same party big oil donates to.

[stinkerbelle]

i do support the troops bring em home alive and healthy for the holidays
King George II could care less about the troops so long as haliburton and exxon are well fed....has anyone looked up the straussian net it is all about leo strauss ...rove wolfowits bush and the rest of the criminal junta are all diciples of this guy the neocons want world domination at any cost...strauss was a political theorist and professor at university of chicago he died in 1973 he is a pretty scary guy..."the vulgar masses"

[dpolley]

dpolley and mark are the only two broken records...apologists for their LORD G.W.Bush...neither of you defended the tax paying citizens of new orleans when bush and his cronies stood around with their fingers in their noses for a week...the best mark could come up with was blame the poor citizens for being too stupid to find a way out of n.o..bush did nothing wrong right mark and dpolley???...so let us all celebrate the iraqis all showing up to vote to end their national nightmare....a vote to send us home...LONG LIVE THE SEPERATION OF CHURCH AND STATE!!!!

SEE?!?!?!?!?! There they go again! (skip) There they go again! (skip) There they go again!

[stinkerbelle]

iraq is gaining freedom and bush spies on u.s. citizens how special....they are all guilty till proven innocent right mark and dpolley?....bush ,cheney what a nightmare....bye bye civil liberties...we are at war!!!...bush is not a fan of our constitution we should just suspened it...oh i am sorry bush already did...to keep us safe...how heart warming

[dpolley]

Quick! Someone bump the needle on the record player. That sad old song is skipping and repeating itself again (just like the democrats and mainstream media).

[mark]

Quick! Someone bump the needle on the record player. That sad old song is skipping and repeating itself again (just like the democrats and mainstream media).


.....how true. That's because the dems has no plan. All they want to do is criticize Bush. I would like to ask the dems a question.

Aside from bringing them home... what's your plan regarding terrorism threats?? ..........see ya mark

[stinkerbelle]

why not start by taking a critical look at our own policies and try and understand how what we do on the world stage affects other people...try and understand how we are perceived by the rest of the planet...make more friends...listen to other people...care about other peoples needs and perceptions...respect our own laws...respect international law...be diplomatic...show the world we care...not just with money but with respect to other cultures ideals...terrorism is a symptom...not the illness...the illness is far more human and simple...we will never win a war against terrorism without addressing the root cause we will only prolong it...READ ABOUT LEO STRAUSS AND HIS POLITICAL THEORY BECAUSE THAT IS WHO YOU SUPPORT

[Jeremy]

Well I don't know about a Democratic plan, but I have something that I would humbly call a plan. The crux of the problem in the Middle east is that you have two opposing worldviews that don't mesh well with each other and there's little being done to integrate the two. What is being done to integrate the two is being done by people who don't fully understand Middle east culture, and it's often with a great amount of disrespect. As I pointed out above, they are deeply suspicious of us and in many ways oppose our way of thinking altogether. Largely this is a religious/cultural thing. The current reconstruction efforts are being done in a way that is uncompromising and comes off as here... take this. A better way of dealing with the problem would be, how can we mix cultures in a way that benefits both, and negates neither?

Currently the government is hiring private firms that deal with security, construction, etc. to go over there and fill in where the military can't. I propose that the government adds to this mix groups of moderate Muslims who can teach conservative Iraqis to integrate with Western culture. Why Muslims? Because only they know what fundamentalist Iraqis know and only they know how to integrate their culture with a culture that meshes well with us. Moderate Muslims believe in peace and flooding the region with these people will help sway right-wing fundamentalist Iraqis to a middle ground.

Iraqi culture and American culture can co-exist. They can be integrated. The evidence of this is the millions of peaceful, happy Muslims who currently live in America and in other countries like the United States.

The real enemy is fundamentalism, on both sides. The salvation is moderation. Tearing down fundamentalism without destroying the religious and cultural views of the people is truly the only way to integrate the Arab world into the global community. You can't replace Arab culture with western culture and you can't just leave Arab culture the way it is either.

Most important in this plan is to treat Iraqis, and the entire Arab world, with the respect and dignity they deserve. This is why our current efforts and policies will not work and why, frankly, Bush will have to go. Iraqis do not feel that Bush represents their interests, this is one of their chief problems with America, and so a true integration effort would not involve Bush. In fact, American foreign policy has mucked things up so bad, and treated the Arab world with such disrespect, that a true integration effort probably could not take place if America is involved at all. If America is to be involved, I truly believe that they should put moderate Muslims on the payroll as peacekeepers, educators, and integrators.

Realize what the Arab world has had to deal with from the western world thus far and you will quickly see why respect and integration is the only way to cause true reform in the area. After World War II, the Arab world was chopped up into pieces and literally given away. Israel once belonged to Palestine. Kuwait once belonged to Iraq. The western world gave a big F-you to Arabs by saying your opinion really doesn't matter, this is what we are doing. Flash forward to contemporary times and what has changed? Not much. Arab people are still treated like little children who must be cared for and told what to do. I'd be pretty ticked off if someone treated me that way.

So much pressure would have been relieved if Bush simply wasn't elected. That's why you get so much Bush bashing. Even if Repulicans had won the election and it was ANYONE else, any other Republican, there'd be a lot less tension in the Middle East. Whether or not Bush seriously respects the Arab world doesn't matter, they don't respect him. Respect goes a long way in Middle East culture and they are big on history. We may look at the first Gulf War and the latest one and say it's coincidence that the two leaders of America were father and son, but to them it is a real family vendetta. It does not matter if it is... They believe it to be so. They do not and will not embrace anything he says. Of course he doesn't help the situation with the things he does say, but that's another matter. I'm sorry to say, but Bush was not the right person to have around when it comes to making the Arab world work well with America.

In the end, serious integration efforts must be made. And they must be made by experts who know something about the Arab world, namely Arabs themselves. Anything else will not work.

Basically, we are doomed :)

[mark]

iraq is gaining freedom and bush spies on u.s. citizens how special....they are all guilty till proven innocent right mark and dpolley?....bush ,cheney what a nightmare....bye bye civil liberties...we are at war!!!...bush is not a fan of our constitution we should just suspened it...oh i am sorry bush already did...to keep us safe...how heart warming

..............I can't figure out why this "spying" stuff is an issue recently unless the press wants to distract average Americans from the good stuff going on in Iraq. Every Prez has used this privilege since Reagan, including Clinton who used it to spy on drug dealers in some of the nation's worse housing units. If you want to talk about a Prez that wants to destroy civil liberties, look at Clinton. The reason you didn't hear anything about that in 1994 is, the press rarely spoke anything negatively about Clinton. He could do NO wrong in these guy's mind....even when Monica was in the picture.

At least Bush is using it towards terrorist & those who want to destroy America, not against Americans themselves.

Big Deal. The press is trying to drum up anything to distract Americans that only gets their news from CNN, or the big "3" networks.

Those uninformed folks are the ones that I feel sorry for..........see ya mark

[tkcomer]

Congress did change the law in the late 70s so the government could initiate a wiretap without a warrant, but you were mandated to get a warrant later. Bush chose to violate the law. He probably could have gotten congress to change the law after 9/11, but he didn’t. I bet the ones cheering for this administration’s total disregard of US laws would be screaming from the rafters if Kerry was president and did the same thing. The pendulum swings both ways. If you say its OK for an administration that you like to break laws, you’ll have to keep your mouth shut when an administration that you loathe does the same thing. Because they already have your approval.

[Chuck]

..............I can't figure out why this "spying" stuff is an issue recently unless the press wants to distract average Americans from the good stuff going on in Iraq. Every Prez has used this privilege since Reagan, including Clinton who used it to spy on drug dealers in some of the nation's worse housing units. If you want to talk about a Prez that wants to destroy civil liberties, look at Clinton. The reason you didn't hear anything about that in 1994 is, the press rarely spoke anything negatively about Clinton. He could do NO wrong in these guy's mind....even when Monica was in the picture.

At least Bush is using it towards terrorist & those who want to destroy America, not against Americans themselves.

Big Deal. The press is trying to drum up anything to distract Americans that only gets their news from CNN, or the big "3" networks.

Those uninformed folks are the ones that I feel sorry for..........see ya mark

You assume Bush's spying is directed toward terrorist only because that is what you read in the media you say is "Anti-Bush. You can only hope they keep it confined to terrorist is the future (They Won't).

I did hear of Clinton and the drug dealers sometime early in his presidency and Republicans immediately called for Clinton to be impeached. I did oppose Clinton do this spying. This was in the media.

All I hear is repeats of Rush Limbaugh in all these post. Yes it sounds like a broken record from this side too.

Bush has way over spent our money, killed, lied and spied. It's a matter of time before this happens to your neighbor.

What can be said to show others what this group is doing to us?

The only thing I have heard people say this administration has done goo it a Tax Cut. A tax cut to a country that owed 7 Trillion dollars left over from Reagan and Bush Sr..

[mark]

The pendulum swings both ways.


THIS STATEMENT we are in total agreement with. My whole point with the above post is.........it would be nice if the press would give the American people a fair reporting of the news & not the slanted bias I see too often.

I have yet to see anything good that Bush has done in the press...... or ........ any other Republican politician for that matter.

I guess it will be my turn to "criticize" the dems if they elect Hillary or another liberal in 2008.
That will keep me busy around here for 4 more years...........see ya mark

[metalgina]

I think that the actions of G W is the reason we are made to look as a laughing stock. We were lied to, and the people just want more...What has occurred during these past few years is an outrage. We can torture and kill Iraqi's, but it's ok, because they are evil?

All the money and lives wasted on war and Homeland Security, we couln't even help our own during the hurricanes in a timely manner, so we are screwed if the big one hits, but you can rest assured that no one in the White House will suffer for even a second.

I do not believe the lies GW told or will continue to tell, shrouded in a cloak of Christianity. Why is it that Christians support war? Doesn't seem very Christian-like to me.
The price of Freedom should be free, live and let live...

Oh, and maybe the reason you don't see anything positive about GW, is because there isn't anything positive to report.....

[kdown]

I think there's a few folks here who could use a basic civics lesson


http://www.presidentsusa.net/presidential_powers.html

[Chuck]

I think there's a few folks here who could use a basic civics lesson


http://www.presidentsusa.net/presidential_powers.html

Had the civics lesson same as you. Wish it worked that way. It doesn't anymore. Read the Patriot Act. It changed that. Read the DMCA (Digital Millennium Copyright Act) It help change that.

Bush had information for Weapons Inspectors that Iraq did NOT have WMD yet he choose to ignore it and the media did not report this. This is the power of one man

Bush single handed removed import/export laws that help keep jobs in America. Did not take a vote of Congress.

Bush delivered a tax cut that mainly helped the wealthy at a time when the Country was had it's biggest debt ever thanks to Reagan/Bush. All Bush Jr. has done is add to that debt.

Now Bush is allowed to spy on any American he chooses. He Say's the word "Terror" and we all cower and allow this to happen. It might be legit right now but don't forget tomorrow.

The list goes on and on however my time to post on it has ran out.

[tkcomer]

Getting back to the Iraq elections, looks like the Bush team is in a quandary. Their favorite group, one who they shoveled millions too, lost big time. The Iraqi National Congress went down in defeat big time. Also, over 30 other groups that lost in the election are screaming fraud. They are saying the new leaders are illegitimate and they will not obey their rule. Bush said the elections were free and fair. Of course, that was before the votes were tallied. Wonder what he’ll say now.

[Jeremy]

Like that one article said, they can have elections every month, but as long as the institutions in place don't embrace the United States, there won't be any reform. The institutions are claiming fraud and boycott, which is the recipe for a civil war. The United States will have to back the recognized government while the 35 political groups and their followers back their leaders, perhaps banding together for a common cause. The result would be that the United States isn't only fighting insurgents, but also taking part in an internal civil war.
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/A65EB454-334F-4D1B-86D6-72D539C69D0F.htm

This, my friends, is why Star Trek has the "Prime Directive" :) Nothing good ever came from mucking about in other people's cultures if they haven't already evolved politically/economically/spirtually/psychologically
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_Directive

[Foxy]

Time for the dumb blonde to ask a stupid question....

Did Bush act alone? I mean doesn't it take votes or political backing to pass some of these things? Is it not a majority ruling? I am not trying to start anything; I am not defending anyone, just asking.

I thought that there had to be a vote or something. As President, it is my understanding that there are decisions that are impeachable. And that as a president, you can't just say let's go to war, and everyone goes to war.

Wasn't Bush lied to? If we believed the same people who told him that there were WMD, then why are those people not criticized? Why is everything Bush's fault, and not also the fault of his advisors?

[kdown]

Finally someone with some common sense asking great questions.

[dpolley]

Time for the dumb blonde to ask a stupid question....

Did Bush act alone? I mean doesn't it take votes or political backing to pass some of these things? Is it not a majority ruling? I am not trying to start anything; I am not defending anyone, just asking.

I thought that there had to be a vote or something. As President, it is my understanding that there are decisions that are impeachable. And that as a president, you can't just say let's go to war, and everyone goes to war.

Wasn't Bush lied to? If we believed the same people who told him that there were WMD, then why are those people not criticized? Why is everything Bush's fault, and not also the fault of his advisors?

Excellent post Foxy. Sadly, in the political arena it's "Cut off the head and the body will die", meaning that the critics in the Democratic party believe that if Bush pays the price, the Republican party will lose a lot of its power. This may work, but only if the Dems actually come up with plans to run the country better. Otherwise, all of their work to get this President out accomplishes nothing.

[Chuck]

Actually no. Bus was the person that sorted the information and delivered it to the American people on Live TV.

Decisions were made based on the information the President and his administration announced.

He was given good information but choose not to go with that.

[Jeremy]

Bush is not solely responsible in my opinion. For the war, the Bush Administration is responsible. There's a lot that makes up an administration, and there is a voting process involved. After so many days, Congress for example has to approve the war. However, when a presidential administration wants something and pushes for it to the extent that the Bush Administration pushed for this war, they are responsible for it, for better or worse. The Downing Street memos even show how the Bush Administration told the UK leaders that they could get the approval of the American people if they tied it to terrorism, long before plans for war even reached the American people's ears. That's culpability. Congress voted for it, the American people approved it, but the Bush Administration pushed for it.

Now that's just the circumstances leading to the war.

The current situation in Iraq is beyond the Bush Administration's ability to fix, or screw up. There's a multitude of factors involved in it. For example, private companies hired to run security in Iraq and rebuild are operating under the Tony Soprano mentality. Funds are being misused, diverted, wasted, lining people's pockets, etc. So there's them. There's also the Iraqi insurgents. There's the Iraqi good ol' boys club, which is the heirarchy of civil power in Iraq that still thrives though Hussein's military power is no longer ruling. The list goes on and on.

[Anonymous Coward]

You cannot please all the people all of the time.
No matter who holds public offices, be it Republican or Democrat, it makes no difference, someone is not going to be happy.
I agree that there are more people to blame than just the President.
EVERY President has something that someone disagrees with. I am not Republican nor Democrat, but Clinton, Bush Sr. and Jr., and Reagan all have had there own issues.

[Anonymous Coward]

Didn't Clinton know that this 9/11 attack was in the works?
Is it the fault of whomever had the lucky position of President when the attacks happened? If Hillary was President when the attacks happened, it would be because she is a woman? If Kerry was president when the attacks happened, would it be because is not "openly" Christian?
I mean why is it someONE's fault. It is not the fault of one person.
If Bush spoke the speech, why is it not the fault of whomever WROTE the speech? If he is a puppet, then he was just reading what someone wrote for him.
I hope this makes sense, it sounded better when I said it, then when I typed it...lol

[mark]

Didn't Clinton know that this 9/11 attack was in the works?
Is it the fault of whomever had the lucky position of President when the attacks happened? If Hillary was President when the attacks happened, it would be because she is a woman? If Kerry was president when the attacks happened, would it be because is not "openly" Christian?
I mean why is it someONE's fault. It is not the fault of one person.
If Bush spoke the speech, why is it not the fault of whomever WROTE the speech? If he is a puppet, then he was just reading what someone wrote for him.
I hope this makes sense, it sounded better when I said it, then when I typed it...lol


..............you do have a point. I see the "passing of the buck" all the time in politics. Prior politicians were always "sticking" their finger into the air to see what way the wind is blowing...then make a decision.

Regardless whether one likes Bush or not, he does stick to his guns. I admire a politician like that & we haven't had one of those since Reagan. I was listening to parts of his press conference on the radio a few days ago & he gave a wonderful answer to some stupid question a reporter asked him.

The reporter asked Bush ( paraphrased-- can't remember exact question ) something about why the polls are against him at this time.

Bush's answer was.......( again paraphrased ) The polls & numbers is stuff you guys can keep up with, my job is to protect America & that's what I'm gonna do !

I loved it !
Bush is finally starting to return the attacks... something the Republicans aren't very good at. If they would quit bowing to the dems & the polls & do what's right, they would be better off!!

We need another Ronald Reagan for sure!

BTW, welcome to the forums Anonymous Coward, glad to have you..................see ya mark

[Jeremy]

Didn't Clinton know that this 9/11 attack was in the works?

Have no idea on this one. Probably not, same as I don't believe Bush did either. I seriously doubt someone who knew for a certainty it would happen would allow it to happen. The 9/11 Commission showed there were indicators that it would happen, but hindsight is 20/20. The only ones who knew for a certainty beforehand were the terrorists themselves, I believe.


Is it the fault of whomever had the lucky position of President when the attacks happened? If Hillary was President when the attacks happened, it would be because she is a woman? If Kerry was president when the attacks happened, would it be because is not "openly" Christian?

The attacks, no. That's no one's fault but the people who did it. The war, however, was chosen. This was the first preemptive strike on our part in the history of the United States. The billed reason was for weapons of mass destruction. We were asked repeatedly to wait and see by other countries and instead we chose to go to war. We not only chose it, we chose it vehemently, thumbing our noses at our allies. Things could have been quite different. We could have waited to see if the threat was real. We could have waited for more allied support such as we had in the first Gulf War. This would have made the reconstruction efforts less of a one-man show. Instead, we chose to go to war, then and there. A different administration may have made different choices. In all fairness, the Bush administration owns their choice, they just don't acknowledge that it may have been a bad one.


I mean why is it someONE's fault. It is not the fault of one person.
If Bush spoke the speech, why is it not the fault of whomever WROTE the speech? If he is a puppet, then he was just reading what someone wrote for him.
I hope this makes sense, it sounded better when I said it, then when I typed it...lol

This I personally agree with, for all the reasons I already posted. Then again, I would have fired the speech writer a long time ago :)

[tkcomer]

Here is the one thing that the thick skulls in the United States just don’t get. They want us out of THEIR country. Is that a hard concept to understand? These people still hate the British and they drove them out over 80 years ago for meddling in their affairs. Bin Laudin bombed us for meddling in the affairs of the Middle East. But we are so arrogant, we just can’t seem to grasp the concept that there are people that would rather have a dictatorship, and the iron rule that goes with it, than all the fighting amongst the tribal factions, and the death and misery that comes with it. Remember, the people of Afghanistan welcomed the Taliban to bring some order to the country. And the Taliban was brought to power with the help of Pakistan. A country that spread nuclear technology to several rouge countries. Technology that they developed with our money. One of our new best buddies in the fight against terror. Jeeze. Until we collapse in massive debt, this country will never learn to stop meddling in other country’s affairs. Or trading with dictators that are hostile to us. Two things our founding fathers said to never do. By then, we’ll have to run to NATO, with big alligator tears in our eyes saying, “They’re picking on us.” Just like the last two meddling superpowers, England and France.

[dpolley]

You're hung up on this bit about the US going broke, aren't you? Things aren't as bad as you think, nor are they as rosy as some think. One thing's for sure, we're not Britain or France. You can't compare this country with those two, period.

[mark]

But we are so arrogant, we just can’t seem to grasp the concept that there are people that would rather have a dictatorship, and the iron rule that goes with it, than all the fighting amongst the tribal factions, and the death and misery that comes with it.


............. I'm going to have to agree to disagree with you on this one & here's why......

If you could get the truth spoken from any group of people......they would rather have freedom anyday than put up with a dictatorship & the iron rules that goes with it, otherwise, there wouldn't have been 71%+ show up at the recent elections.

If they wanted the dictatorship still, the things below would only be a dream:

Did you know that 47 countries have reestablished their embassies in Iraq? Did you know that the Iraqi government currently employs 1.2 million Iraqi people?
Did you know that 3100 schools have been renovated, 364 schools are under rehabilitation, 263 schools are now under construction and 38 new schools have been built in Iraq?
Did you know that Iraq's higher educational structure consists of 20 Universities, 46 Institutes or colleges and 4 research centers, all currently operating?
Did you know that 25 Iraq students departed for the United States in January 2005 for the re-established Fulbright program?
Did you know that the Iraqi Navy is operational?! They have 5-100-foot patrol craft, 34 smaller vessels and a naval infantry regiment.
Did you know that Iraq's Air Force consists of three operational squadrons, which includes 9 reconnaissance and 3 US C-130 transport aircraft (under Iraqi operational control) which operate day and night, and will soon add 16 UH-1 helicopters and 4 Bell Jet Rangers?
Did you know that Iraq has a counter-terrorist unit and a Commando Battalion?
Did you know that the Iraqi Police Service has over 55,000 fully trained and equipped police officers?
Did you know that there are 5 Police Academies in Iraq that produce over 3500 new officers each 8 weeks?
Did you know there are more than 1100 building projects going on in Iraq?
They include 364 schools, 67 public clinics, 15 hospitals, 83 railroad stations, 22 oil facilities, 93 water facilities and 69 electrical facilities.
Did you know that 96% of Iraqi chil dren under the age of 5 have received the first 2 series of polio vaccinations?
Did you know that 4.3 million Iraqi children were enrolled in primary school by mid October?
Did you know that there are 1,192,000 cell phone subscribers in Iraq and phone use has gone up 158%?
Did you know that Iraq has an independent media that consists of 75 radio stations, 180 newspapers and 10 television stations?
Did you know that the Baghdad Stock Exchange opened in June of 2004?
Did you know that 2 candidates in the Iraqi presidential election had a televised debate recently?

All these things are good & can happen to a free nation. Ask any soldier that returns from Iraq the truth. They'll tell you the above is true.

The sad part is....the American press ( except FOX ) won't tell us the real truth of what's going on there. If the truth were to be told, support for freedom there would increase dramatically..............see ya mark

[Chuck]

I cannot agree to disagree. If another post pops up on the same subject I reserve the right to voice my opinion.

Agreeing to diagree means I am resolved with the issue and I am not.

I think most if not all of the information in the post above is repairs from war damage.

[Anonymous Coward]

What about the abuse the women and children suffered under the regime? Did they ask for that? Did they ask for their male relatives to beat them, to accompany them when they are in public, or risk being beaten, to wear long sleeves and veil to hide their faces in temperatures over 100 degrees?
Did the children ask to be married at 11 years old? Did they ask not to go to school? Did they ask to suffer and die from diseases that we in America have a simple vaccine for?
I think that given the choice they would choose freedom under most any circumstances.
Yes SOME of the rebuilding is because of the war, but MORE schools, hospitals, and public buildings than were ever there before.
The ones in Iraq opposed to this war seem to be the men that will lose their control over women and children.
But that is just my 2 cents. I know it ain't much, but.....

[Jeremy]

Did you know that 47 countries have reestablished their embassies in Iraq? Did you know that the Iraqi government currently employs 1.2 million Iraqi people?
Did you know that 3100 schools have been renovated, 364 schools are under rehabilitation, 263 schools are now under construction and 38 new schools have been built in Iraq?
Did you know that Iraq's higher educational structure consists of 20 Universities, 46 Institutes or colleges and 4 research centers, all currently operating?
Did you know that 25 Iraq students departed for the United States in January 2005 for the re-established Fulbright program?
Did you know that the Iraqi Navy is operational?! They have 5-100-foot patrol craft, 34 smaller vessels and a naval infantry regiment.
Did you know that Iraq's Air Force consists of three operational squadrons, which includes 9 reconnaissance and 3 US C-130 transport aircraft (under Iraqi operational control) which operate day and night, and will soon add 16 UH-1 helicopters and 4 Bell Jet Rangers?
Did you know that Iraq has a counter-terrorist unit and a Commando Battalion?
Did you know that the Iraqi Police Service has over 55,000 fully trained and equipped police officers?
Did you know that there are 5 Police Academies in Iraq that produce over 3500 new officers each 8 weeks?
Did you know there are more than 1100 building projects going on in Iraq?
They include 364 schools, 67 public clinics, 15 hospitals, 83 railroad stations, 22 oil facilities, 93 water facilities and 69 electrical facilities.
Did you know that 96% of Iraqi chil dren under the age of 5 have received the first 2 series of polio vaccinations?
Did you know that 4.3 million Iraqi children were enrolled in primary school by mid October?
Did you know that there are 1,192,000 cell phone subscribers in Iraq and phone use has gone up 158%?
Did you know that Iraq has an independent media that consists of 75 radio stations, 180 newspapers and 10 television stations?
Did you know that the Baghdad Stock Exchange opened in June of 2004?
Did you know that 2 candidates in the Iraqi presidential election had a televised debate recently?


I'm sorry, but I have to point at that many of the things above don't just "appear" over the course of two years. They're being appropriated from what was already in place before the US showed up. Also added to the list are things that are being rebuilt after the US destroyed the original. I wouldn't necessarily call that progress. For example, a University doesn't just appear after two years. Navy's don't just appear. Iraq already had a foreign exchange program for students. Iraq's Air Force of three operational squadrons is what's left over after we took down the rest. There were already foreign embassies established in Iraq, even under a dictatorship. There were programs of higher learning. Iraq wasn't a backwoods third world country, it was a thriving center of the Middle East.

Besides, I'm not fully convinced that many of the things on that list are good things. Polio vaccinations for children, sure. Stronger military? No thanks. Iraq isn't the 51st state of the Union. It's a nation all by themselves that may just bite us in the keister in ten, twenty, or thirty years. I have no problem with the idea of keeping your enemies close, but don't arm them!

Other things on the list I find completely immoral although they sound like progress on the surface. For example, the 1,192,000 cell phone subscribers. I read an article about this one. Cell phone companies are one of the many, many private industries that all got together and literally had a meeting to determine how they could profit off the war in Iraq. As servicemen and women were dying over there, they were hashing out deals with the government to be the ones chosen for padded government contracts to provide cell service in the newly opened market. Campaign contributions, shady deals on the side. It really **** me off.

Iraqi freedom or a new market of cell phone subscribers for dark-capitalism? Who the heck knows? But when you add everything up, it spells out a story I wouldn't tell to children. I'd tell them the same thing other people would. Yeah, in 2003 we went over there and liberated these people. The thing is, I'd know that I was lying.

[Chuck]

What about the abuse the women and children suffered under the regime? Did they ask for that? Did they ask for their male relatives to beat them, to accompany them when they are in public, or risk being beaten, to wear long sleeves and veil to hide their faces in temperatures over 100 degrees?
Did the children ask to be married at 11 years old? Did they ask not to go to school? Did they ask to suffer and die from diseases that we in America have a simple vaccine for?
I think that given the choice they would choose freedom under most any circumstances.
Yes SOME of the rebuilding is because of the war, but MORE schools, hospitals, and public buildings than were ever there before.
The ones in Iraq opposed to this war seem to be the men that will lose their control over women and children.
But that is just my 2 cents. I know it ain't much, but.....

What right do we have to judge how these people have lived for 1000's of years? What right do we have invading and forcing a life style change?

What makes us so self-righteous?

We turned this war into some sort freedom fight. When the whole war was originally based on our fear of one man. Only because we can't except that we were wrong from the start.

Iraq had everything you said we are building before we dropped bombs on them.

They had a education, they had a military, they had police and most of all they had a lower crime rate than we did.

Honestly we have no idea what type of Government they are actually building there. Had you read the Constitution they are preparing? The laws they are establishing?

All the reasons I supported the war originally where proved to be a lie. So I am glad to see us rebuild. But just like a friend that comes to stay with you, sooner or later you want them to leave. For what I hear that is not an option.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Please don't confuse my words as anger toward you in anyway. I have a great deal of respect for any person that will post their opinion. This is just mine. Doesn't make it right just makes it mine. My best friends disagree with my opinion.
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[mark]

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Please don't confuse my words as anger toward you in anyway. I have a great deal of respect for any person that will post their opinion. This is just mine. Doesn't make it right just makes it mine. My best friends disagree with my opinion.
---------------------------------------------------------------------


..............this statement I agree with Chuck. We've disgreed with each other on a number of issues since I've been here. I realize it's mainly the war & the national election ( I really had fun during that time ) & that's OK. I respect your thoughts & I realize you do mine.

As I've said before, I like to see other's opinions whether I agree or not. Differing opinions makes me think my side & sometimes my thoughts has been changed. ( believe me, they have )

Disagreement is fine as long as it's reflected towards the topic. Name calling, etc. doesn't do anything but create problems & you along with the monitors do a great job controlling that.

That's what's wonderful about America. Most of us can openly "agree to disagree" without resorting to violence.............see ya mark

[tkcomer]

What strikes me as funny, if the Iraqi people hated Saddom so much, why didn’t they attack him like they are doing to us? He would have gone down in a short time if the people’s anger were directed at him. But a majority must have not minded his rule. And he certainly wouldn’t have gotten any outside help from the surrounding countries as they hated him. Mainly because his people enjoyed much greater freedom and education than his strict Islamic neighbors. If they really don’t like someone, they’ll band together and get rid of him. Just like they did to our puppet, the Shaw, in Iran. And don’t forget, the original plan was not to free the people of Iraq.

[Eddie]

We let these post go and we all seem to get along fine. The information is posted and the rest of us are suppose to dance around like everything is peachy wonderful.

Don't jump to a false conclusion based on a a right winged policy.

I am highly upset that 300,000 or however many Americans are over there fighting and dieing for a false, illegal war. They should be home with family for Christmas.

You can candy coat it anyway that helps you sleep at night. Call me a liberal if it makes you feel better. War is Death and Destruction.

It has already been proved that we were lied to about the reason for the start of this war and now we are basically stuck with it.

I agree Chuck, Bush just plain lied to get us into this war, and for what, simply so he could finish what daddy didn't! Here's some more to chew on...You've all seen the news story by now about the 16 year old Florida kid who's parents are from Iraq, and he himself looks like a native Iraqie traveled to Bahgdad on his own. If we're doing so much good over there, then why was everyone so concerned that if he walked down the street in Bahgdad he would be captured or killed????? It sounds to me as Bush and his Republican newspaper friends who feed you people whatever you want to hear, once again have been made out to be liers. If it's so much better over there, then someone tell me why a kid who looks like he's from Iraq cannot walk down the street of the main town of the country?
And as far as the election turn out is concerned, there are two reason they (The Iraq people) turned out to vote, 1. it's something new for them and 2. Bush likely paid each of them at the pole for showing up.
I would put nothing past him or his cabinet.
And lastly, I wouldn't want to bet against the Democrates taking back the white house, It'll be 20 years before another Republican will even be allowed to clean the bathrooms at the White house! Vote for honesty, vote Democratic!

[dpolley]

Hmmm, let's see...... Honesty and Democrat.....Nope, sorry, those two words don't go together except maybe in a joke (of course, you can't substitute republican in place of democrat either; at least as long as career politicians rule both parties).

[Foxy]

What strikes me as funny, if the Iraqi people hated Saddom so much, why didn’t they attack him like they are doing to us? He would have gone down in a short time if the people’s anger were directed at him. But a majority must have not minded his rule. And he certainly wouldn’t have gotten any outside help from the surrounding countries as they hated him. Mainly because his people enjoyed much greater freedom and education than his strict Islamic neighbors. If they really don’t like someone, they’ll band together and get rid of him. Just like they did to our puppet, the Shaw, in Iran. And don’t forget, the original plan was not to free the people of Iraq.

One word FEAR. They are afraid of him. Look was has happened to the people that are prosecuting him in the courts.

[Foxy]

Here's some more to chew on...You've all seen the news story by now about the 16 year old Florida kid who's parents are from Iraq, and he himself looks like a native Iraqie traveled to Bahgdad on his own. If we're doing so much good over there, then why was everyone so concerned that if he walked down the street in Bahgdad he would be captured or killed?????

Well, as far as being worried about him, there is still alot of hostility over there. Regardless of the reason, they are still capturing people and torturing them. There are still insurgents there that want Sadam back. They are still a hostile enviornment.

[Foxy]

And lastly, I wouldn't want to bet against the Democrates taking back the white house, It'll be 20 years before another Republican will even be allowed to clean the bathrooms at the White house! Vote for honesty, vote Democratic!

So would you say that it is a "party" that was the start of this war? What would a democrat have done if he/she was president during the 9/11 attacks?

For the record I have no affiliation to either party for this reason. I try to vote for the person that at the time of voting seems right for the job. Not just presidential elections but local ones as well.

Because I vote, is the reason I can complain about elected officals. If you don't voice your opinion at the polls, then you have no right to be mad at who ever is elected by others.

[Jeremy]

So would you say that it is a "party" that was the start of this war? What would a democrat have done if he/she was president during the 9/11 attacks?

The 9/11 attacks weren't the reasons for going to war in Iraq. They were the reasons for going to war in Afganistan. Democrats would have probably gone to Afganistan looking for bin Laden. Democrats probably wouldn't have gone to Iraq because the idea for Iraq totally came from the Bush camp. The reasons for the Iraq war were all laid out by the Bush camp and sold to everyone else as imminent danger. That was totally political whether or not the information was accurate. As it turns out the information wasn't accurate and there is even some evidence that it was actually fabricated.

[Chuck]

So would you say that it is a "party" that was the start of this war? What would a democrat have done if he/she was president during the 9/11 attacks?

For the record I have no affiliation to either party for this reason. I try to vote for the person that at the time of voting seems right for the job. Not just presidential elections but local ones as well.

Because I vote, is the reason I can complain about elected officals. If you don't voice your opinion at the polls, then you have no right to be mad at who ever is elected by others.


For the record. None of the 911 hijackers were Iraqis. We have never been attacked by Iraq and a major majority of the 911 attackers were Saudi Arabian.

It is wonderful that Saudi Arabia is our friends. A country that runs a Monarch with a King and no free elections. Matter of fact if you where in this country and you spoke these words you would be punished.

Iraq was attacked because false information was given to engorge votes and support us to go to war.

It was a party that punished that mis-information.... Just don't think the Bush family business would want us invading Saudi soil.

[Foxy]

LOL..i must agree that Bush doesn't want us to invade his money tree grove.

I don't recall saying that the 9/11 attacks were done by Sadam. I only asked what the Democrats would have done. I think we should have gone after (and still should be going after) Osma twice as hard as we went after Sadam. I don't understand how he is still in hiding. If we can find the other one in a hole in the ground on a farm... we should be able to find the big semi truck in a desert on its way to give Osama his dialysis. (It is no secret that he is in Kidney failure, and needs dialysis twice a week)

And ain't it great that I can speak my mind and not get punished? (Although, sometimes I do get a lot of grief from you and Eddie..lol)

[Foxy]

Ps...

Man I Love This Site!!!

[Eddie]

One word FEAR. They are afraid of him. Look was has happened to the people that are prosecuting him in the courts.

You're right Foxy, but you gotta know the US had fear when we claimed independance from England. If a country wants true independance and democracy, They have to find it within their self and fight for it. Otherwise, as soon as the country who won it for them pulls out, they will be right back to where they were. I assure you there are a million Sadams waiting in line. In my opinion the middle east countries are full of nothing but cowards who are affraid to fight their own fights. So what do we do? we get American Boys and Girls killed for oil.... sorry democracy.

I do agree with your earlier post about binladen (forgive the spelling), if we wanted him, we'd find him. And if the war was truely about fighting terrorism, we'd go after him no matter which country he was in. The truth, all Bush wanted was Sadam and the oil of Iraq, he had no concern about a so called terror threat the poor people from Iraq posed. Again lets ask, where were the WMDs????