It all comes down to ...

[acoolmom777]

One thing …



Not as a Republican or Democrat but as an American…Here we are trying to teach other countries that the freedom to vote is great and in the best interest of their country. Yet all you hear about OUR election in the media is how our country is split, the bashing that goes on between both parties and fight over whose vote belongs to whom. Our forefathers would roll over in their graves if they seen how our country has turned out. You can’t even thro we do, really point a finger of blame. It is to much of a combination of things. I think if I had to pick an era that this country seem to really be “American” I would have to say the late 50’s. If you were alive back then, or hear the stories of what went on back then, that was a time ALL were proud to be an American.Yes I am in the Republican party but more than that I am a born and raised “Christian American military brat” one that stills believes in “One nation under God, Prayer, Our Laws, and last but not least the right to VOTE. Whatever the out come I want to thank Chuck and all that are involved in this site…for the Freedom to voice our opinions, this “Freedom of Speech”, one of the most important of all…This allows us to be true “Americans”.

[MsOblvious]

I too am proud to be an America. I believe most American's are.....and the ones that say they aren't, well maybe they need to go and try to live somewhere else for a while. We do have many problems in our country and I pray that they can be changed. But we have many positive things here, one such positve is, as you say Coolmom....our "Freedom Of Speech", without that we wouldn't have such great debates!!!!!!!!!

[Jeremy]

I believe that the 50s marked one of the dark histories of the United States where our freedoms, particularly the freedom of speech mentioned above, was pushed aside for a strictly enforced "American Way of Life" ideal. I am speaking of the McCarthyism era during the 1950s where it was considered Un-American to exercise the right to freedom of speech if it meant criticizing the government or experimenting with other ways of living contrary to capitalism. Several hundred people were persecuted and shunned out of fear that the country would collapse to the red plague of communism. Freedom of Speech was neither encouraged nor tolerated unless it fit the norms of the House of Un-American Activities Committee. I hate to bring this to everyone's attention, but if the 50s were a time when "ALL were proud to be an American", it was a veneer forced upon American citizens. To be Un-American had dire consequences. I mention this because of the large number of people, most notably the Dixie Chicks, Johnny Depp, Suzan Sarandon, Tim Robbins, and others who are treated with such disrespect because of their strong feelings about the war in Iraq and the President. I mention this also because almost every authority on what happened during last night's election believes that it was the evangical Christians, called out because of moral values such as stem cell research, abortion, and gay marriage, who won the vote for George W. Bush. In each of these issues it is one group of people forcing another to comply with their moral view of what to do with their own bodies. "Freedom of Speech" and the "American Way of Life" are catch phrases thrown around by people who only truly believe that their speech, their way of life, is the correct one. There is nothing more American than censorship and forcing others to adopt your moral values. I believe last night's election was a huge let-down for the healing of America. Some people aren't here to teach other countries "that the freedom to vote is great and in the best interest of their country". You can't expect an almost evenly polarized country to miraculously come together for a common goal when the largest voter turnout in history wasn't because of terrorism, or a war, or even domestic issues like the economy or job loss. It was because a whole lot of people wanted make sure gays didn't marry.

Disclaimer: I am not a Democrat, or a Republican, or a Christian, or any other label in which you can automatically dismiss my views.

[acoolmom777]

You have good and different views as well pointed out in your post…the part of the 50’s I was referring to..was a little more on the surface…as follows

No one would never think of burning the American Flag or criminal justice would be brought in.
You did believe in the government to do what they had promised.
There wasn’t as much of the Smith’s and Jones be as good or better then the Johnson’s or Jackson’s.
You didn’t have to worry about your children’s Halloween candy.
You were more grateful for what you had.
Mom and Pop businesses were a way of life.

As for “evangical Christians” if that is the category that I fall in because I don’t think a man should lay down with a man or a woman with a woman…the so be it. I don’t judge people, it is not my place. But I don’t have to like or agree with them…
That my friend is where “Freedom” comes in..

As for “You can't expect an almost evenly polarized country to miraculously come together for a common goal when the largest voter turnout in history wasn't because of terrorism, or a war, or even domestic issues like the economy or job loss.

Then that is something we as Americans should learn to do. We did it after 9/11 and it lasted for a while then we get back to our every day lives and come together one day a year in remembrance. That I don’t agree with.

I am a teacher per say…of our up coming youth and I hope that I contribute in some ways that in their time things may change for their generation. I am a Christian and I do believe in God…therefore my Faith, Trust and Belief does depend on his “teaching”..right from wrong. All falls back to the Freedom to choose and the Freedom of speech.

[Chuck]

very nicly stated Jeremy.

[kcredden]

To be honest, after this election I'm more disenfranchised with the whole election thing. At least THIS time the courts, and lawyers didn't put in whom they wished. But lets face it. What are we really doing, voting? When our founding fathers made this country, they didn't put into the constituation that big businesses would be allowed to rule the country, as they are now. So I ask, are we voting for people for US, or voting for puppets of businesses? More and more I see the puppets strings.

I said before, I want to move to Canada, so I can get some health care. We're not going to get anything like that for another 4 years. Not even an attempt at it. Clinton at least tried. I seriously doubt Bush and the repubs, will do squat against big pharma. Until then, the elderly will continue to eat dog food because they can't afford to buy real food due to the price of their meds. This idea big pharma blows around too; drugs arn't safe from other countries. Folks, where do you think 90% of drugs come from? U.S. companies, who sell them to other countries, then they can ship them elsewhere. Also a more fundimental question. What's the problem? Dying from a counterfit or bad drug, or dying from not having nitroglyerine when you have a heart spasm because you can't afford it? Or another way, what if your system is ran down cause you can't afford to pay for the heat, or eat right? Then what does it matter.

I'm aleady feeling that effect. I've got T2 diabeties. You know how much just testing strips costs? $45 p/25 at Wal-Mart. If you go for a cheaper brand, then they're so inaccurate, as to be useless. Guess what? I found one cheap source finally. $25 for 100 strips (same type as Wal-Mart's) at E-Bay.

Now you can't buy drugs though e-bay, but they arn't classified as drugs. What would happen if I was on hypogalacimic agents, or even worse, insulan? I'd have to go on disibility, and medicare to afford this. Private insurance will cut you off at the knees if you so much as mention your a diabetic.

From what I got, from reading and hearing all the news, the main reasons that people voted for Bush is a) Terrorism (I can sort of understand that, but no president can protect us), and b) Religious/Faith based ideas. That's all fine and dandy, but how is faith and protection going to help feed us? Clothe us? Get us jobs? Bush and the Repubs is doing nothing to stop companies from outsourcing like crazy, nor are they working to free us from the tyranny of health costs, or helping the enviroment.

I guess the message is, if you got faith, your protected, and doesn't matter if you can afford that new SUV, or house, or xbox for the kids at christmas. Just pray you don't get sick or need a doctor, or can breath or drink the water or such.

Yep. I'm glad I voted. Now where is the nearest exit to Canada?

[Jeremy]

Doesn't the fact that criminal justice would be brought in if you burned a flag show that freedom of speech wasn't available? The fact there were laws against it certainly suggests that burning the flag crossed someone's mind. Just a thought, but more to my point...

Opinions are great! I love opinions. I have a few of my own. Some I keep stingily and some I generously share with others. Freedom of opinion is what makes us individuals in a community of others. It has always existed and always will. Since we cannot read each other minds, we can't stamp out other people's opinions. We can try to persuade them to our own opinion, but we can't force them to accept it, or even know if their opinion differs from our own should they decide to keep the opinion to themselves.

Freedom of speech is an entirely different matter. Freedom of speech can be penalized, suppressed, or stamped out altogether. This, I believe, was done during the 50s and in many ways is being done today.

More to my larger point...

I have no criticism of Christians. Most of the people I know and love are Christians, and I love them dearly. I also have no criticism of folks who are of the opinion that gays and lesbians are going to the other place, should not be allowed to marry, or even should not be allowed to hold a job, etc. Opinions are great! I love them... etc. An entirely different matter altogether is when opinions are forced upon others, which is why I used the qualifier "evangical". Believe me, I am not attacking you. My criticism is towards the people who dreamed up the concept to even put it on the ballot.

Let's face it. That particular issue was a strictly religious issue. Water it down and call it a moral issue if you'd like, but it is still one group of people forcing their opinion on another. That, my friend, is not freedom. It is the absence of freedom, or a perversion of freedom, but it is not freedom. You can't call it freedom of religion, or freedom of speech, or freedom of expression, or even freedom of opinion. Those are all passive things, something someone does solely within the confines of their own individuality. The best case that could be made is that it is the freedom to supress freedom.

Everything I said above is just an opinion. I choose to share it with you. I'm not passing a law forcing you to accept it. The difference is that you don't have to live with my opinion or care less. Gays, on the otherhand, are forced to live with the opinions of others until the law is repealed.

I agree wholeheartedly that people should come together and learn to get along. What a great world that would be! I am simply pointing out how hard it will be considering that people are still... still in today's world... trampling on civil rights in the name of religion and moral rightness. All of this because we have the audacity to believe that God can't speak for Himself and the narcissism to believe that we must speak for Him.

Again, just my opinion. Doesn't affect anyone here one bit.

I forgot to mention that the phrase "One Nation, Under God" was added to the Pledge of Allegiance during the McCarthy era solely to separate ourselves from the godless communists. I thought this was appropriate to add.

Really, acoolmom77, I apologize for the whole 1950s tie in with my rant. It's not my intention to simply take that part of your post and pick it apart. I just really don't like the 50s and got all fired up when I read it in your post. Like others, I am frustrated with the results of the election and have no recourse until 2008.

[mark]

....................I think this religious "feeling" others has portrayed in this election is folks trying to get back to the old ways of moral living. If a person wants to be gay, that's fine with me, as long as he keeps it in his bedroom or his closet.
Where I have a problem is....when the gays, kooks, & other oddballs try to force their anti-Biblical actions upon us & our kids.

One may say....ah, that isn't happening, your crazy. Crazy huh?? Just turn on any network sitcom during the evening prime time & most of the shows are about men wanting to get together with other men...or....a sexual theme of some kind. I don't know about the rest of you, but my 10 & 8 year old will NOT watch that kind of TV. I'll have to explain this stuff to them someday anyway.

Regarding equal rights, you think the health care system is broke now, just wait till the gays & everyone else gets their medical benefits as Hillary wanted. The AIDS & other sexual transmitted diseases will absolutely get out of control. When the gays play, eventually they (and/or us ) will pay.

The 50's era acoolmom is referring to is the "Donna Reed" TV show mentality. She is right, in the 50's, we didn't have to worry about your male neighbor "molesting" your kids as we do today.
Halloween was a fun time, unlike today & you could even pick up hitch hikers then.

I for one am GLAD we have a Christian as a Prez. I understand our country is sliding into the Abyiss, but with Bush's help, it will take longer for all of us to get there.....................see ya Mark

[kcredden]

Folks, as a moderator, I'm glad we have people like Mark and others here. I've been on the internet for 10+ years, and seen so many BBSes, newsgroups and such just explode into a major flame war that really bring out the nasty in people. Mark is showing a lot of restraint and I pat his back for it. But I think Chuck would want me to trim a message, or yank one if it got too far out of range. So I'm going to say nothing else on this thread and just keep an eye out.

Keep posting your opinions, and anger, but do remember to keep it PG-13, and not to attack anyone. Your all doing well.

[Jeremy]

As I said, the "old ways of moral living" are a veneer. A coat of nostalgic paint. Sexual molestation was just as much of an issue during the 50s as it is today, just no one talked about it. It was too shameful to speak of. At least today, people are able to speak about topics like this without thinking it is their fault, or without people blaming them. Sex in general is an open subject now which can be discussed intelligently and honestly.

People often talk about the good old days. When was this? The 1950s? The civil rights movement hadn't started yet. Blacks still had to sit in the back of the bus, use different restrooms, go to different schools. Women were treated like garbage. If Donna Reed told you otherwise it's just another coat of paint.

Was the good old days before the 50s? Maybe the 1800s when there were still slaves and women couldn't vote? Before then? Biblical times maybe when slaves were even more common place and people were hung on crosses as punishment?

Every age has its problems. If you believe in the Bible, that was the whole point of the Story of Eden, that humans were cast out so that they would know suffering. There is no decline in morals. There never was the perfect age.

Back to my point...

I'm quite sure gays would be content for you to leave it in their bedroom and out of the voting booths. I'm also sure they would be content if you never watched TV about them, read a book about them, or tried to educate yourself about them at all. Change the channel.

In the early sixties people were apalled to see black folks on television. They were outraged to see a black man embrace a white female. That's evolution for you. Sincerely, if you never encounter something that offends you, you are not living in a free society.

Your STD/AIDs argument is really not convincing. If it were you would be for monogamous partnerships, ie. marriage.

Note to moderator: Just an opinion and hopefully not too controversial. By the way, I like Mark and CoolMom and hopefully they see this as a healthy debate and not an attack.

[kcredden]

Note to moderator: Just an opinion and hopefully not too controversial. By the way, I like Mark and CoolMom and hopefully they see this as a healthy debate and not an attack.

Not at all, Jeremy: It was strongly worded, but I didn't see it as an attack, so I won't touch it. Of course, Chuck and Daph has the final say and I won't step on their toes.

Keep going folks! Debate is healthy...personal attacks, arn't tolerated. Personally I've been suprised, and delighted we can go this far.

[acoolmom777]

[QUOTE] Really, acoolmom77, I apologize for the whole 1950s tie in with my rant. It's not my intention to simply take that part of your post and pick it apart. I just really don't like the 50s and got all fired up when I read it in your post. Like others, I am frustrated with the results of the election and have no recourse until 2008.[QUOTE]

Jeremy:
lol...That kind of stuff I don't take personally...I look at it like...(as my hubby would say...) "An opinion is like a butt, everyone has one..." I just am the type of person that just doesn’t have a problem telling what I like or dislike…(as on my profile).
As for the healthcare stuff…I totally agree more then you know. Many years ago during a 30 day policy change on my hubby’s insurance…my son got very ill..cost us 50,000 in 3 days..wiped our savings out in a heartbeat…in fact my hubby just started a new job and we won’t have insurance until…Jan 15th, so I totally agree with you on that. I am self-employed yet in my type of business I have to comply by “state regulations” but do you think I can get state employee insure….NO. But I still feel that is a problem as a whole,,,no just one person can change, no matter who got elected.

Mark:
Dude…your post is to long to “quote”…lol, But…you know I agree with you 100%. I have a 21 years old son…he has his own views on this stuff, and I respect them (I brought him up right, wink, wink,…lol). I also have a daughter that will turn 10 next month…she knows the world isn’t perfect….but she also know to keep looking to the “east”. I also home school her because I think the school system stinks..(my opinion)..and yes I teach her in a Christian way.


Kevin:
We are fine, I don’t think we have gotten to the point of” hands around the throat”, in a matter of speaking…lol…

I will end on a light note: Someone mentioned something about SUV’s …now that was a low blow…”I love my big black truck”,,lol..

Good morning to all…going for more java :rolleyes:

(well...I guess I don't have the quote button right yet...lol)<SMILING>

[Chuck]

All looks good bu me. Keep up the good post. But please don't splatter anyones blood on the wallpaper.

Like it or not the country is divided in their beliefs. Unfortunately we live in a country that was not founded on morals it was founded on blood and a constitution.

Our country was made by people that were tied of another country 3000 mikes away taking over and running things.

Morals are inly respective to your beliefs not the beliefs of another.

The bible does give moral guideleines but it also tells you there is only 1 unforgivable sin.

[tkcomer]

You know, I don’t think the religious right can throw an election. Clinton stayed in and they absolutely hated him. And the gay amendment? A lot of people that I know and are not very church like voted for that one. This is what I think got Bush elected, the uneducated. When poll after poll show half of Bush voters still think Iraq had WMD, that my friend is an uneducated voter. The GOP war machine convinced these voters that only Bush could save them. Liberal media? These people must not read. The national debt? Most people that I talk to over 65 could care less. They were convinced Kerry was going to nationalize health care. And the AARP bunch is a huge block of voters. I know way too many people that think we should kill ALL Muslims. Solid Bush voters. And I run in a pretty small circle, so I know there has to be a lot more of those types out there. It’s the one issue voter that is slowly doing this country in. And these people seem to be the least tolerant of anybody I’ve ever met. And they are blind on any other issue. You could talk about the whole world collapsing and they will look you straight in the eye and say, “Kerry is a gay lover.” Jeeze.

[kcredden]

Kevin:
We are fine, I don’t think we have gotten to the point of” hands around the throat”, in a matter of speaking…lol…

I will end on a light note: Someone mentioned something about SUV’s …now that was a low blow…”I love my big black truck”,,lol..


Quite all right, acoolmom. That's one reason I signed up as mod, as I've been mods on several forums, and wizard (moderated) an on-line game for 2 years. So I can see a flame war coming. But since it has been almost 8 months since it even got THIS hot, :) I thought I'd also remind folks that we do moderate the forums. Also it helps defuse the situation. I try to be like a father watching out the window, at his boys playing outside. I don't interfere unless it's necesary. To interfere too much stifles the forum, and scares off some people. Which I'm sure all doesn't want.

So keep playing, kids. You won't see this dad, unless it's necessary. Then I won't spank, but mearly warn.

People say I would make a good cop. I'll leave that to the real heros :)

Like your big truck hmm? [hehes]

[mark]

............I have to add something to my post that should clarify it a little better. Here's what I posted up above:

Regarding equal rights, you think the health care system is broke now, just wait till the gays & everyone else gets their medical benefits as Hillary wanted. The AIDS & other sexual transmitted diseases will absolutely get out of control. When the gays play, eventually they (and/or us ) will pay.


Then Jeremy posted this:

Your STD/AIDs argument is really not convincing. If it were you would be for monogamous partnerships, ie. marriage.


OK, here goes........IF gay marriage was allowed to be out & in the open and gov't were picking up the tab, the health care system today would totally be more broke due to the widespread of the AIDS & other sexual diseases.
Meaning.......once something is FREE( health care in this example ), a lot of folks that won't take responsibility for their actions will be the 1st in line crying for help!
Marriage between one man & one woman in most cases eliminate the AIDS threat...........and..........the overwhelming need for expensive care in this case. Don't get me wrong, if a person TRULY needs health care that gets sick due to no faults of their own. Help should be available.

For those who play, eventually they (and/or us ) will pay.

Yes, I'm for the marriage between one man & one woman. The breakdown of morals in society are happening just like during Sodom and Gomorrah.

Here's the story from Genesis 19 if you wish to read it:

http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?passage=genesis+19%3A1-24&NIV_version=yes&language=english&x=14&y=12

It's not a pretty story.

So................I'm glad to see that the 11 states that had the same sex amendment issues on their ballots overwhelming voted against it.

That's good ..................see ya Mark

[Chuck]

What if you go by a different bible?
Remember The King James Version has only been around a few hundred years. And it was a re-write by man and did bring us the Inquisitions.

What if I go by a bible that says more than 100,000 Hebrew are all that will make it to heaven?

Remember in the book of John, Jesus makes reference the the old testament is not to be concerned anymore, since his arrival?

What has made us so self-righteous that we are now allowed to judge all men with one standard? An standard that is only a few hundred years old?

We have a Constitution in which the United States was founded to allow all people to be treated equal. The each man has rights granted to him regardless of race, religion or sex.

So now we feel that we are so self-important over man we have chosen to allow a pack of rabid attorneys to re-right a section so some of us can feel safe or comfortable.

People allow such laws as the Patriot Act because we feel the Govt. should take care of us. Others feel we need "Gun Laws" so that the Govt. can do their job and take care of us.

In closing we are many different people from every part of the world and we where invited here. Our constitution was established to satisfy everyones needs, So that we don't become divided and that we learn to live and except each other on a common ground.

If we learned anything from the Spanish Inquisitions it should be that you cannot brutalize or chastiser your neighbor to follow your beliefs. We should have learned you need to meet people on a common ground and allow them there right to be free.

Let people be people and allow yourself to be you. Don't take that from yourself.

[mark]

...................OK,OK you do have a point. I debated whether to bring the Bible into the debate or not before posting. You're right, others believe in all kinds of Bibles & that's their right & I accept that.

I'll go back to the post I made earlier:

....................I think this religious "feeling" others has portrayed in this election is folks trying to get back to the old ways of moral living. If a person wants to be gay, that's fine with me, as long as he keeps it in his bedroom or his closet.
Where I have a problem is....when the gays, kooks, & other oddballs try to force their anti-Biblical actions upon us & our kids.

So, having said that earlier........I still will NOT support others that wants to promote same sex marriage, sodomy, child molestion, gay living, and any other perverted actions I can't even think of right now................see ya Mark

[acoolmom777]

Ok going to try that quote thing again...

[QUOTE=mark...
If a person wants to be gay, that's fine with me, as long as he keeps it in his bedroom or his closet.[/QUOTE]
I totally agree with you Mark on this, any flaunting of sexually in public is wrong…that is where we have screwed up a few generations back. We became to open for “public”. Trust me I’m guilty of that some myself…my hubby and I go back 28 years. I guess you feel different after you have kids…but anyways since there is a big disagreement in all peoples views …do keep it in the bedroom….”what we don’t see can hurt us”……I am a strong believer in the…”to each is own thing” too…lord knows my daughter ask enough hard questions to answer right now, I surely don’t need any added to the list…and people wonder why are kids grow up to fast…we don’t let them just be kids.
But as a Christian..my Bible says you will be judged for your actions and your works.


Crap..... I am so doing that quote thing wrong...grrrrr
Ok Chuck, you are going to have to tell me what I am doing wrong.

[Jeremy]

Let me say thanks to all who have weighed in our this discussion. Each post has illustrated my point quite nicely that there is a deep division of values in this country that cannot be healed. It can be seen very clearly in the electoral map of blue states versus red. When you explore the actual counties of those states it can be seen even more clearly in urban versus rural areas, or the Starbucks crowd versus the Dunkin Donuts crowd. There is a deep division and each side believes very strongly in their values.

I don't expect the other side to agree with my values. I do expect others to be respectful of certain values and not pass laws against them but that's just me. People much smarter than I have tried to convince the other side and... well, we have the election results, don't we.

One side won the election and more importantly the ability to usher through new laws. What I want to make clear is that it's just one side. The other side is not going away quietly. The other side consists of an almost statistically even population and we are in many ways polar opposites of the prevailing values. To put it bluntly, we are angry, as I'm sure the other side would be had they lost.

After 9/11 there was such a beautiful union of people. Everyone agrees on this and believe me, no one has forgotten it. Still, the months and years after this period have brought one hard slap on the face after another.

Everyone is calling for a uniting of the country. It was in Kerry's concession speech and in every discussion of Bush's re-election. Everyone really wants it including those like myself that believe it is too far from reach.

But what does it take for a real healing? Compromise. Concession. When you have polar opposites both need to give a little. I just don't see it and I'm looking really hard. Neither does anyone else who really believes they lost something Tuesday night.

Some believe that the Bible, or at least the old testament (Jesus was much more forgiving than the old testament characters) is the cause of nearly every War that has ever transpired in the world. The other side believes it is the uniter of the world. How do you reconcile that?

[acoolmom777]

Jermey,
As I read your post, it was as if I could almost hear the sadness in your voice.

"The other side believes it is the uniter of the world. How do you reconcile that?"

I think a good start is just what Chuck's siggy says..."I may not agree with what you say but will fight for your right to say it".

Good night ..My Friend and Fellow American

[kcredden]

I've been debating for sometime whether or not to defend a certain minority of people that was raised within this thread. Mainly because I didn't want to be seen using my mod powers as a crutch, or lever. However one post ended that debate in my head. Both sides shook hands on this one.

Within my life of 39 years, I've met many good people, many people I would use derogatory names, if this wasn't a polite board.

Within that time period, I've also met many types of people, from many different backgrounds, religions, races, skin colors, and yes even political viewpoints. I've worked with the blind, and visually impaired, the physcially challenged too. You know what? In all of those groups, I've seen the same in every single type of person.

I saw gays, bis, lesbians, transgendered. I know of a gay doctor, who happens to be my best friend. I know of one transgenered lesbian (M2F-Post op) whom I met before her operation, and I watched her go from a bitter, and angry young man, with no direction n life, to a well adjusted, animator now working for Dreamworks. She has a partner whom is a sweet, kind hearted individual. Both consider themselves lesbians, and both said in my face, that they consider me a friend Why? Because I don't judge them, and I treat them with the same respect that I treat anyone here or elsewhere. I also don't try to 'convert' or even date them. My TG friend's partner is quite attractive.

When I worked with the blind, I met a bisexual blind person. Although I wasn't in charge of helping him, we talked extensitvely, and he was one of the most learned people I knew. He and I had endless debates on the 3 stooges, which we both loved. (He lost his sight to a fire when he was an adult.) Was he bitter? No, in fact, when I was diagnosed with diabeties he helped me accept and grow past it. No feeling sorry for myself, sort of thing.

I've spent many a time with my gay best friend in hotel rooms as we travel the country. We both have a love of horses, of travel, history. Our tastes in music may be somewhat different, but that's about the only differences aside from our tastes in genders. But we both accept that about each other, we accepted it 10 years ago and it's not a problem.

I know of several gay parents too. I know of one transgendered who finally gave up the struggle, and had his final operation and now his wife, is still her wife.They have children from that former life.

What I think I'm trying to get at, is that because a person is bi/gay/lesbian/transgenred, does not automatically mean they're pedophiles. To say that, is to say all muslians are insaine bombers, all Germans are goose-stepping genocidial maniacs (I have a german friend, BTW), all american indians are savages that go around scalping people, or all Pagan/Wicca followers are satanists. (I have several dozen wicca friends and I know of a few in Mason Co., but I will not say where or whom they are.)

I have no problems with the christian faith. I have no problems with people who follow it. Heck, know who one of my heros is? Mother Teresa. She's helped shape my life as I was growing up. I have no problems with republicans either. I'm an independent - I vote for the man (or woman) I preceve to be the best choice, be it republican, Democrat, or independent. (and no I didn't vote for Nader) Lincoln is one of my heros, and I admired Reagan too.

I'm angry at Bush being re-elected, for I see it as a return to the same old, and things we need done will not be done. He may or may not keep the religious/moral background going, that's not my concern. Mine is jobs, heath care, the enviroment, and the eroding of our constitutional rights by big business and Ashcroft. Big business already is exercising faux police powers. Congress is looking the other way as well. Congress, and the president has checks and balances. So does our military, and our local police as well. Businesses on the other hand have none. That angers me, and that's why I cannot see anything but the same in the next 4 years.

Finally in closing, I will support anyone's views when they wish that gay marriages for example be banned. That's their rights, and they was given that right on Nov. 2nd. The fight will go on, and eventually gays will have the right to marry (or civl uniionize) - look at mixed marriages. It was banned many years ago, now it doesn't even turn a head. People, and society grows, and learns that humanaity isn't so different, and our differences are our strenght. I have no problem with people who are homophobic as well. It's a difference of opinion, and as one said here "Opinions are like rumps, everyone has one.) I just wish everyone to know that I feel to label gays automatically as pedophilies is extremely unfair, and below the belt. To be honest, I seriously doubt you could know a pedophile from a normal person unless by their actions. I personally don't know any that I know of but I won't automatically tell my child, that they cannot be around my best friend. If I suspected, then perhapse.

This post that set this off, doesn't change anything about this board. I will remain a loyal subscriber and mod of it. I knew what I was getting into; after 10 years I know a few things, and have a thick skin. Especially how to keep biting your tongue when you have to defend someone. It won't give anyone special or unfair treatment either. I'm here to protect people rights, sensibilities, and mental well-being and that's what I'll do. You have my word on that.

I guess I grew in a different way, and I'm proud to be a supporter of the bi/gay/les/TG minority.

IDIC!

[kybikertrash]

Okay, I'm reading these post and I agree with some things and disagree with others.

The one thing I don't understand is why morals play such a big part in presidential elections. I agree we need a president who has good morals but I really don't see them being used for any legislative purposes.

I know several Christian people who voted for Bush because he is anti-abortion. Someone tell me what has he done in the past four years to stop abortion? I haven't notice any changes on that. Maybe I missed it. Was Roe vs Wade overturned? And on the gay marriage issue, well it seems to me he has passed the buck on that one leaving it up to the states to decide. Why was it even mentioned in the presidential and VP debates? The federal government has given it to the states to decide. Kinda of the "I'm against it but I don't want to be responsible for making that decision" attitude.

I've heard it said you can't legislate morality and I believe that. Murder and stealing and drugs (etc.) are all ilegal but people still do it everyday and get away with it.

People need to look at the real issues. Yes, morals are good to have but less people are going to have them if they have to steal to feed their family because they lost their job.